Cairns Crocodile Trophy

Bicycle related chatter & discussion
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Toff
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Postby Toff » 28 Oct 2008, 12:05

So 49 y.o. Eric Vanderaerden: 1983 sprinter extrodinaire, winner of the TDF prologue, wearer of the Maillot Jaune and previous champion of Belgium is currently in Oz, competing up in Cairns.

http://www.velonews.com/article/84409/l ... ides-in-oz

For those who have no idea who I'm talking about, see below:
Image
That's also his Aussie teammate Phil Anderson on the left wearing the green cap behind Sean Kelly. Also looks like Bernard Hinault on the right.

And not a clipless pedal in sight...
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jimmy
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Postby jimmy » 28 Oct 2008, 13:58

For anyone who missed what happened on Stage 4, here is the cyclingnews article

Crocodile Trophy - Stage 4

I think that this is the reason that I follow Cycling rather than a more mainstream sport in Australia like say...

Cricket

James
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lindsay
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Postby lindsay » 28 Oct 2008, 14:39

And not a clipless pedal in sight...
or helmet
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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 28 Oct 2008, 16:00

No carbon either
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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 28 Oct 2008, 16:10

No sports glasses... 8)
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Toff
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Postby Toff » 28 Oct 2008, 16:12

No handlebar mounted shifters. :cry:
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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 28 Oct 2008, 16:17

Leather cycling shoes only come in one colour... Black. :?
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williamd
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Postby williamd » 28 Oct 2008, 17:49

No aluminium frames.
no computers.
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Toff
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Postby Toff » 29 Oct 2008, 10:24

No radio headsets. :wink:
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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 29 Oct 2008, 10:56

No CERA.
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Toff
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Postby Toff » 29 Oct 2008, 11:47

No CERA.
No tests for it anyway...
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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 29 Oct 2008, 15:33

No EPO
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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 29 Oct 2008, 17:07

No EPO
EPO was already available in the early 80s.
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Toff
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Postby Toff » 29 Oct 2008, 17:46

EPO was already available in the early 80s.
... But not the tests to detect it.
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Postby weiyun » 29 Oct 2008, 17:57

... But not the tests to detect it.
That's right, so they may be on EPO. Hence the counter to Mike's "No EPO" statement. As for CERA, that didn't exist back in the 80s, so definitely no CERA in that photo. :wink:
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Toff
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Postby Toff » 29 Oct 2008, 18:30

That's right, so they may be on EPO. Hence the counter to Mike's "No EPO" statement. As for CERA, that didn't exist back in the 80s, so definitely no CERA in that photo. :wink:
I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and suggest that we cannot state that CERA did not exist in the 80s, precisely because there was no test for any EPO back then.
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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 29 Oct 2008, 18:56

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here and suggest that we cannot state that CERA did not exist in the 80s, precisely because there was no test for any EPO back then.
You have just placed yourself in an untenable position.

CERA is a third generation erythropoietic stimulating agent and did not exist back in the 80s. Agency approval was only obtained by Roche in 2007-08 time frame. Even with a long clinical development timeline, it's safe to say that it did not exist in the 80s.
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Toff
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Postby Toff » 29 Oct 2008, 20:45

You have just placed yourself in an untenable position.

CERA is a third generation erythropoietic stimulating agent and did not exist back in the 80s. Agency approval was only obtained by Roche in 2007-08 time frame. Even with a long clinical development timeline, it's safe to say that it did not exist in the 80s.
We are of course all aware that CERA is a 3rd gen. EPO agent, and so logic dictates that until EPO became detectable, there was no need for anyone to invent CERA. However, if a drug-taking athlete assumes that a reputable test for artificial EPO will eventually be discovered, then it makes sense for him and his chemist friends to guess the nature of that test, and invent a new drug to thwart it.

The drug cheats that don't get caught are the ones who are at least one step ahead of the authorities. This applies as much now as it did two decades ago. And drug cheats don't really care much for following all those clinical development protocols that tend to slow things down a bit too much (like a decade or two).

I personally doubt that anyone took CERA in the 80s, or had the technology to imagine it. But my doubts without proof are baseless. It is at least theoretically possible for someone to have taken CERA way back then.

Just because no-one from 1984 was ever caught cheating with CERA does not mean it never happened. Or, to put it another way... absence of evidence does not guarantee evidence of absence.

My role was to play devil's advocate, which is to argue a point (that I don't necessarily have to believe) in order to test the logic of the argument. I think I've done that...

So is my argument untenable? - Clearly not. Is my statement valid? - I think it might be somewhat tenuous, but not spurious.
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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 29 Oct 2008, 21:24

I personally doubt that anyone took CERA in the 80s, or had the technology to imagine it. But my doubts without proof are baseless. It is at least theoretically possible for someone to have taken CERA way back then.

[deleted]

So is my argument untenable? - Clearly not. Is my statement valid? - I think it might be somewhat tenuous, but not spurious.
If CERA was some naturally occurring molecule that floats in our environment then yes, there's a possibility. But quite simply, the pharmaceutical technology that's needed to engineer CERA in the labs did not exist at that time. So the possibility goes to zero. :P
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geoff m
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Postby geoff m » 29 Oct 2008, 22:19

One thing which was around then, when photo was taken.....

Japanese stock market value today was exactly the same then...to be precise, the same value as the year before this photo was taken.

How's that for useless bit of information... Quite amazing really.
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