update... Ti Frame - Which fork???
Well, i've been thinking about a new frame. Now i've come to the question of whether i should get a Carbon frame, or a Custom Steel frame. Steel will obviously be heavier, but it is nice. Cost is fairly even, and they both look good.
Last edited by T-Bone on 01 Jul 2009, 17:04, edited 2 times in total.
I vote steel. It comes with alot of free carbon anyway.
Steel is superior for ride comfort, durability, and longevity. Custom dimensions will make for a really nice fitting ride, and the frame will survive much more abuse than carbon.
Steel is heavier than carbon fibre, but on a modern racing frame the difference is marginal. Even for racing. the weight of your bike is not significant, unless you are going to climb lots of hills, in which case you carry one third less water in your bottle.
If weight is still the burning issue, then why don't racers take off their Ergopower (STI) shifters and replace them with downtube shifters? The weight saving there would be about as much as the weight penalty for riding steel over carbon fibre.
Steel is superior for ride comfort, durability, and longevity. Custom dimensions will make for a really nice fitting ride, and the frame will survive much more abuse than carbon.
Steel is heavier than carbon fibre, but on a modern racing frame the difference is marginal. Even for racing. the weight of your bike is not significant, unless you are going to climb lots of hills, in which case you carry one third less water in your bottle.
If weight is still the burning issue, then why don't racers take off their Ergopower (STI) shifters and replace them with downtube shifters? The weight saving there would be about as much as the weight penalty for riding steel over carbon fibre.
Based on the frequency you crash your bikes b/n training and racing over the last 3 years, only a steel frame makes sense. 
Carbon fibre is undoubtedly the best material for building a racing bike. The pros all ride carbon fibre bikes because they are there to win races, and money is no object. Consequently, the carbon fibre frames they race on are built to be thrashed, and then thrown out after maybe a season's racing. They are as light as the rules will allow, and this means compromising in those other areas which are important to some of us mere mortals. The same applies to the high end components on their bikes.
The carbon fibre frames in the shops are often clones of the bikes the pros race on. They are light and strong for riding, but woefully understrength in other areas. They are just not strong if an event they were not designed for occurs. These events can be a collision, transportation in a box, or being accidentally knocked over. In one extreme example, I have seen a ballpoint pen pushed through a carbon fibre frame tube. Most of us have seen the footage of the rider in last year's TDF who hit a dog with his carbon wheel, only to have the wheel crumble beneath him.
I had an expensive carbon fibre bidon cage crumble from nothing more than pulling a bottle out a few times.
I realise I may be an exception though... I don't buy Shimano parts, because I like my components to last more than a year or two. I don't see value in buying a Shimano cassette that has been pre-worn to give me smoother quiter shifting, but has significantly shortened the working life of the cassette. I continue to use bike parts well after they are considered obsolete by the racing fraternity, and to me aesthetics, quality, reputation and nostalgia are features of bike parts that I look for when I select both frames and components.
So to me, whilst carbon fibre is very cutting edge, the frames that are currently being sold have too many flaws to justify the slight weight saving, and I don't see them as value for money. Another person who is seeking a frame that is the best of the best, and is able to give the material the care it needs, may argue for the virtues of carbon fibre. And the truth is... it's fine with me.
The carbon fibre frames in the shops are often clones of the bikes the pros race on. They are light and strong for riding, but woefully understrength in other areas. They are just not strong if an event they were not designed for occurs. These events can be a collision, transportation in a box, or being accidentally knocked over. In one extreme example, I have seen a ballpoint pen pushed through a carbon fibre frame tube. Most of us have seen the footage of the rider in last year's TDF who hit a dog with his carbon wheel, only to have the wheel crumble beneath him.
I had an expensive carbon fibre bidon cage crumble from nothing more than pulling a bottle out a few times.
I realise I may be an exception though... I don't buy Shimano parts, because I like my components to last more than a year or two. I don't see value in buying a Shimano cassette that has been pre-worn to give me smoother quiter shifting, but has significantly shortened the working life of the cassette. I continue to use bike parts well after they are considered obsolete by the racing fraternity, and to me aesthetics, quality, reputation and nostalgia are features of bike parts that I look for when I select both frames and components.
So to me, whilst carbon fibre is very cutting edge, the frames that are currently being sold have too many flaws to justify the slight weight saving, and I don't see them as value for money. Another person who is seeking a frame that is the best of the best, and is able to give the material the care it needs, may argue for the virtues of carbon fibre. And the truth is... it's fine with me.
Not too concerned with the weight of the frame, as the complete bike with a steel frame can be brought down to my current bikes weight with some key upgrades (mainly light race wheels, not that i can afford them all yet). I do like climbing those hills though.
I also know that there's well made carbon, and not so well made, but unfortunately i can't afford custom carbon. Plus, i'm not concerned too much with the life of the frame either, or durability in crashes (if something happens, it happens).
The main things i'm considering at the moment is ride quality, handling, and stiffness. Handling should be made to suit with the custom geometry, though i haven't had much of an issue with frames in the past, the same goes for fit. Ride quality is subjective, though i have a feeling the Steel frame may be slightly more pleasing to ride, but i guess geometry can affect this as well. Stiffness is the unknown, but realistically, it's probably not something i should worry too much about, as it should be easily sufficient for me.
I'll post some pics (after work) of the two frames that are currently on top of the list in each material.
I also know that there's well made carbon, and not so well made, but unfortunately i can't afford custom carbon. Plus, i'm not concerned too much with the life of the frame either, or durability in crashes (if something happens, it happens).
The main things i'm considering at the moment is ride quality, handling, and stiffness. Handling should be made to suit with the custom geometry, though i haven't had much of an issue with frames in the past, the same goes for fit. Ride quality is subjective, though i have a feeling the Steel frame may be slightly more pleasing to ride, but i guess geometry can affect this as well. Stiffness is the unknown, but realistically, it's probably not something i should worry too much about, as it should be easily sufficient for me.
I'll post some pics (after work) of the two frames that are currently on top of the list in each material.
Go and test ride the two and your heart will tell you. Then again knowing you, both frames only exist as photos on an online web page, not touchable by you.I'll post some pics (after work) of the two frames that are currently on top of the list in each material.
Correct!! Though a custom Steel frame would be hard to test, and no distributer for the Carbon one in Australia. I think the custom steel is what i'm leaning to though, mainly because the geometry will be made to suit me.Go and test ride the two and your heart will tell you. Then again knowing you, both frames only exist as photos on an online web page, not touchable by you.
That is an option, and close enough to the price range. There's a few options in this category as well, all fairly similar, though i think i'm able to actually test ride one of them. Some options would be Everti and Enigma, no Lynskey due to headtubes too long, maybe Planet-X though need to think about sizing. Everti i can probably test as Cranks stock them.TITANIUM!!!
Here's the pics.
CARBON
Ditec 890
other options Beone Rosso (from chain reaction), or Canyon Ultimate CF
STEEL
Enigma Elite
probably some other options, but would need to investigate.
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mikesbytes
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There both red
Carbon one looks cool. Tell me though, how do I mount my lightweight downtube shifters?
Enigma - meh. Just looks ugly, especially the fork crown and dropouts. And if you're going to the trouble of getting a custom frame, why use compact geometry? That's just silly. Also, for the money, there are cheaper local alternatives.
Enigma - meh. Just looks ugly, especially the fork crown and dropouts. And if you're going to the trouble of getting a custom frame, why use compact geometry? That's just silly. Also, for the money, there are cheaper local alternatives.
Shocked that you actually have to use shifters. Single speed rules!Carbon one looks cool. Tell me though, how do I mount my lightweight downtube shifters?
What are you skeptical of? Every material has its unique characteristics, some good and some bad. Steel can suit some requirements while not others, same goes for CF alu alloy and every other material.Im seriously skeptical about carbon though...
"Translinky" is funny!
ive been hearing about alot of cracking, including bottom brackets (not just matt and who ever the other peson was at the tracks)What are you skeptical of? Every material has its unique characteristics, some good and some bad. Steel can suit some requirements while not others, same goes for CF alu alloy and every other material.
though i do hear that if it doesnt happen early it probably wont happen)
and yeah., carbon has a lower year warranty alot of the time (not in orbea i dont think, though i didnt find out what a lifetime was counted as)
lifetime warranty is generally just manufacturing defects, which would include a bottom bracket shell coming loose.
I didn't think it looked that bad, nice smooth welds (fork can always be swapped), plus i prefer slightly sloping top tube to avoid the frame looking too much like a paddock gate. More a modern steel frame, rather than a timeless classic. Haven't looked around at aussie builders too much yet.
Enigma - meh. Just looks ugly, especially the fork crown and dropouts. And if you're going to the trouble of getting a custom frame, why use compact geometry? That's just silly. Also, for the money, there are cheaper local alternatives.
I didn't think it looked that bad, nice smooth welds (fork can always be swapped), plus i prefer slightly sloping top tube to avoid the frame looking too much like a paddock gate. More a modern steel frame, rather than a timeless classic. Haven't looked around at aussie builders too much yet.
just wrote a long post and it didn't go through, so here's the short version.
Ditec - decided there weren't enough reviews, apart from it looking good, and a couple of mentions about it being flexy (got me wondering), though flexy compared to what?
Baum steel frame - bit out of the budget this time round.
Planet-X Ti - Looks like the pick right now. Large size should fit well enough, XL is too big. Polished frames coming back in stock mid-july, and slightly cheaper pre-order. Will get a chris king headset from PBK, so just need to decide on the fork, as the planet-x doesn't have the looks i want.
Fork choice - Prefer a straighter blade, or a least a not very prominant curve. Options would be Ritchey WCS, 3T fundra, Reynolds Ouzo Pro, Easton EC90SL, Edge 2.0 (costs a bit more), Alpha-Q (not sure about the glued in inserts).
Any comments or opinions, especially on fork selection, let me hear them.
Ditec - decided there weren't enough reviews, apart from it looking good, and a couple of mentions about it being flexy (got me wondering), though flexy compared to what?
Baum steel frame - bit out of the budget this time round.
Planet-X Ti - Looks like the pick right now. Large size should fit well enough, XL is too big. Polished frames coming back in stock mid-july, and slightly cheaper pre-order. Will get a chris king headset from PBK, so just need to decide on the fork, as the planet-x doesn't have the looks i want.
Fork choice - Prefer a straighter blade, or a least a not very prominant curve. Options would be Ritchey WCS, 3T fundra, Reynolds Ouzo Pro, Easton EC90SL, Edge 2.0 (costs a bit more), Alpha-Q (not sure about the glued in inserts).
Any comments or opinions, especially on fork selection, let me hear them.
http://www.habcycles.com/
here's the content of the email I had with them in 2005
Hi there, Jonathan...
The costs of shipping a frame to Oz is pretty steep - around US$250.
I know because I had to have one shipped to me during the two years I lived in NSW (Killara, north of Sydney - I'm sure you know the area).
Left in October 2000 (after the Olympics, fortunately).
I've had people who find someone else who wants a frame go together to knock the shipping costs in half (since two frames fit in one box).
That also produces a 3.5% discount on the frames (just in case you may know someone looking for a "beer budget ti frame").
All this talk about Oz and beer has me missing my Toohey's Old... sigh...
And we haven't ever shipped a painted frame - though there have been a couple misguided souls who have probably had their frames painted. I for one would hate to do that since I'd have to start treating my bikes gingerly again (something I really don't recall how to do any longer...
it's nice to not worry about 'em falling over occasionally).
Cheers,
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
here's the content of the email I had with them in 2005
Hi there, Jonathan...
The costs of shipping a frame to Oz is pretty steep - around US$250.
I know because I had to have one shipped to me during the two years I lived in NSW (Killara, north of Sydney - I'm sure you know the area).
Left in October 2000 (after the Olympics, fortunately).
I've had people who find someone else who wants a frame go together to knock the shipping costs in half (since two frames fit in one box).
That also produces a 3.5% discount on the frames (just in case you may know someone looking for a "beer budget ti frame").
All this talk about Oz and beer has me missing my Toohey's Old... sigh...
And we haven't ever shipped a painted frame - though there have been a couple misguided souls who have probably had their frames painted. I for one would hate to do that since I'd have to start treating my bikes gingerly again (something I really don't recall how to do any longer...
it's nice to not worry about 'em falling over occasionally).
Cheers,
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
Tarn at Cycleunderground is making some great frames with john bosevski.
I'm not sure what the cost is but john has lots of experience on custom frames.
Habcycles would most probably be a similar cost though and if i had the choice of steel or ti for the same money, i'd go for ti everytime
I'm not sure what the cost is but john has lots of experience on custom frames.
Habcycles would most probably be a similar cost though and if i had the choice of steel or ti for the same money, i'd go for ti everytime
I saw mention of John Bosevski somewhere, but don't really know enough about his work. Habanero isn't much cheaper than the Planet X since i'd need custom geometry, because the headtubes are too long (seems to be the case with a lot of frames), i need 185mm max headtube including headset.
So, the Planet X is being ordered.
So, the Planet X is being ordered.
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mikesbytes
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James, did you buy a Ti frame? You'll have to update the survey LOL
Not sure how to update the survey, and i didn't want to create another couple new topics.
Anyway, Forks i'm currently considering, don't want to spend much more than $400. In order of cheapest to most expensive:
Ritchey Pro UD Carbon Forks
Easton EC90 SL
3T Funda Pro
Ritchey WCS UD Carbon Forks
The Edge 2.0 i can't quite afford, otherwise i would get that. The other options i'm either undecided on looks, or haven't found them cheap enough yet. So it's narrowed down to 4 options.
Anyway, Forks i'm currently considering, don't want to spend much more than $400. In order of cheapest to most expensive:
Ritchey Pro UD Carbon Forks
Easton EC90 SL
3T Funda Pro
Ritchey WCS UD Carbon Forks
The Edge 2.0 i can't quite afford, otherwise i would get that. The other options i'm either undecided on looks, or haven't found them cheap enough yet. So it's narrowed down to 4 options.
Last edited by T-Bone on 01 Jul 2009, 22:14, edited 1 time in total.
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mikesbytes
- Posts: 6991
- Joined: 13 Nov 2006, 13:48
- Location: Tempe
- Contact:
What happened to those carbon seats that are integrated into the carbon seat post
I'm sure they're still around, and probably still expensive.
My main issue is i need a seatpost that can handle the oversized carbon rails on my saddle, and a lot of them can't. 2 bolts is also preferred. A Thomson Masterpiece seatpost is an option, but not sure if i would go black or silver (depends on silver matching or not).
My main issue is i need a seatpost that can handle the oversized carbon rails on my saddle, and a lot of them can't. 2 bolts is also preferred. A Thomson Masterpiece seatpost is an option, but not sure if i would go black or silver (depends on silver matching or not).
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