Pro Bike Kit returns

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Frank.S87
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Postby Frank.S87 » 03 Nov 2008, 19:26

Hi just a general question.

i bought a helmet and a jersey from pro bike kit, the helmet is too small and jersey too big. iam thinking of exchanging the helmet for a bigger size, and just return the jersey in one go.

and was wondering what the exchange/return producer is like. if any one had any experience please share with me, as iam very spectacle about buying stuff online let alone returning things.

hmm also if any one out there looking for a top of the range Giro Helmet.
model: Giro Ionos Red/black size M (55-59)cm which is the newer model of the Atmos.

I paid $300aud + postage and iam willing to sell it for $260 if any one is out for a helmet other wise i'll just post it back and take my luck on it
and same goes for the jersey i paid $78 for it im willing to sell that for $70
it is a CSC jersey with full zip size XL

please let me know if selling is not allowed on this forum

cheers :D

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 03 Nov 2008, 19:33

PBK is pretty good IME. Either call them or email.

If I were you, eBay might be a more direct option, especially for the helmet.

Frank.S87
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Postby Frank.S87 » 03 Nov 2008, 19:41

i dont trust ebay because you are buying off private i purchased some pills before it did not go pass customs and never got a refund so yeah never used it again PBK was referred to me by a cyclist that i stopped on the road asking where he got his gear from

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Beanzy
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Postby Beanzy » 03 Nov 2008, 19:42

Just be aware that if you do any racing, you need a helmet with the appropriate Australian Standards sticker.

The sticker is not likely to be on an overseas bought helmet, even if the helmet is the same model/brand. Helmets purchased here will have the sticker if they have passed the standard.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 03 Nov 2008, 19:47

i dont trust ebay because you are buying off private i purchased some pills before it did not go pass customs and never got a refund so yeah never used it again PBK was referred to me by a cyclist that i stopped on the road asking where he got his gear from
What happened to all the punctuation? :shock:

My earlier suggestion was for you to sell it on eBay rather than to ship it back to PBK. As you are the seller, you are far less likely to get scammed.

Damian
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Postby Damian » 03 Nov 2008, 20:24

i purchased some pills before it did not go pass customs\
I get a lot of emails trying to sell me those pills


:shock:

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 03 Nov 2008, 20:32

I get a lot of emails trying to sell me those pills
Why don't CERA merchants spam me? Don't they know I ride a bike? They have assumed everything else about me... 8)

Frank.S87
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Postby Frank.S87 » 03 Nov 2008, 20:37

the pills i was offered,
were Japanese weight loss pills made from natural herbs.
the seller was actually quoted "reliable in a popular asian forum"
but i guess it just wasnt my luck :D

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 03 Nov 2008, 20:38

BTW, who is Franksun87? We do have an "introduce yourself" thread sticky for this exact purpose.
http://dhbc.org.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=372

Frank.S87
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Postby Frank.S87 » 03 Nov 2008, 20:45

ops will do that now

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jimmy
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Postby jimmy » 04 Nov 2008, 07:15

I have a question about helmets that don't have the Australian Standards Sticker.

My understanding of the law requires you to wear a helmet that meets AS/NZS 2063. Now, if I own a helmet that I purchased overseas, but it is also available in Australia, then my particular helmet won't have the standards sticker. So can it be considered illegal to wear it in Australia? Or not so much illegal, as more you are considered not to be wearing one.

This then raises another point, what if you have an accident with a motorist, which is their fault and you sustain head injuries. If you are not wearing a helmet that has the Australian Standards Sticker, in the eyes of the law, are you then not wearing a helmet, which means that the motorist has diminished responsibility towards your head injuries?

I am not a lawyer, and I only have a basic understanding of the law, but I would be interested to hear from people who have more experience in this area.

As far as the original question goes, PBK has a good returns policy. I have had it used when I ordered stuff for someone else, basically, you pay for the return postage and the postage for the stuff back to you.

James

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 04 Nov 2008, 07:33

We had a similar discussion on this recently on another forum.

I am not aware of any test case on this issue. But unless the manufacturer has two different designs, one specific for the Australian market, I'd think a case like that would not stand up in court. But if we have a different model locally, then things may be different. At the same time, I doubt companies would have different models for Australia given how small our market is. The only difference is probably just a sticker. I have read that companies have not imported certain models due to various regulatory or other reasons.

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jimmy
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Postby jimmy » 04 Nov 2008, 09:11

I know that Giro had an issue for a while. There was a particular Giro helmet that couldn't be purchased in Australia as it didn't pass our testing requirements.

I also know that some riders were using that helmet regardless as they had purchased them from overseas, that would be a more interesting scenario.

I think personally, helmets are one of the very few products that I would not purchase from overseas, even though I can possibly get them cheaper and it is only missing the Australian Standards sticker.

James

Frank.S87
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Postby Frank.S87 » 04 Nov 2008, 09:11

i have decided to just get a refund for the helmet. and go with a lazer genesis helment with the aussie sticker, will do some shop around on thursday night after work.

thanks for the replies

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 04 Nov 2008, 09:34

I wonder how AS test helmets. Last week we had a discussion on MET helmets where it was noted that at least one model had the tendency to flip over one's forehead. A forum survey elsewhere showed quite a number of people in similar situation. I wondered if AS collect feedbacks once the product reaches the market place.

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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 04 Nov 2008, 09:41

On the discussion about the Australian Rules sticker, I think you can get helmets from Torpedo7 with the Aussie rules sticker.

On the discussion on the accident, what if the sticker has fallen off?

Also is there a rule on how old a helmet can be?

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williamd
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Postby williamd » 04 Nov 2008, 18:48

There are some crappy helmets out there with the Australian Standard sticker. KMart sell a lot of them along with their crappy bikes.

If you value your head don't buy a crap helmet even with the Australian Standard sticker.

Giro helmets are superior quality and that is why you don't see them in Kmart.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 04 Nov 2008, 18:55

There are some crappy helmets out there with the Australian Standard sticker. KMart sell a lot of them along with their crappy bikes.
Are you suggesting KMart is a cheap source of AS stickers? :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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williamd
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Postby williamd » 04 Nov 2008, 20:22

The sticker is the only part of the K mart helmet with any value. :wink: :wink:


Weyun
Would you go racing on a kmart bike?

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 04 Nov 2008, 20:39

Would you go racing on a kmart bike?
If my engine is good enough, sure. But my engine isn't that good. :P

Realistically, KMart doesn't have a drop bar bike on sale...

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geoff m
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Postby geoff m » 04 Nov 2008, 22:08

I've seen commissaires enforce the Australian standards rule on helmets at both Heffron Park and opens.

The standards for testing are very strict and cost in the tens of thousands per model. That's why only limited models make it thru. Manufacturers are not prepared to invest a fortune in many models for a limited market.

So the KMart ones ironically have passed the strictest standards in Australia. this includes side impact as well as frontal impact.

Frank.S87
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Postby Frank.S87 » 04 Nov 2008, 22:35

this would be a good case if it came up in court.

especially if there was an accident involving a top of the line GIro helmet from with no aus sticker.

and the arguement of Aus Sticket came.

Eg $300 Giro helmet (no sticker) vs $20 Kmart helmet ( with sticker )

Btw for my sisters 11th bday last month i bought her a dunlop bike and a cheap helmet from Big W it costed me $130 all up. just to let you know her bike weighs like a tone.

after finding out the shipping return of the giro ionos helmet back to the UK would set me back $35, also an extra $10 for the exchange shipping. i have decided to give the helmet to my little sister for better head protection. after william said "If you value your head don't buy a crap helmet even with the Australian Standard sticker.

and i guess now shes got a helmet which is worth 3x her bike :D

@ least her head is well protected now if something were to happen

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 05 Nov 2008, 05:30

For small kids bikes, what I have learnt is that LBS's offering aren't that different to some of the KMart/ToysRUs bikes, but at double to triple the price. Similar weight, similar components, dodgy hand brake. Things only start to differentiate from 20" wheeled bikes onward.

I am not convinced that more expensive is safer argument on helmets (for impact protection). All the helmets on the markets have passed the same safety testing to be given that AS or any other official regulatory stickers. The main differentiator lies in the engineering time spent on maintaining the same level of protection whilst removing big chunks of material for vent holes. And then it's marketing 101 to increase the margin on those bling helmets. Of course, vent holes keep your head cool and comfortable and would contribute to passive safety.

BTW Frank, your Ionos is a M. Are you sure that's a good fit for your 11yo sister?

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 05 Nov 2008, 05:58

The standards for testing are very strict and cost in the tens of thousands per model.
As are European and American testing standards.

This regulatory sticker issue for me is just about national autonomy. A very similar issue to drug and medical device regulation where most significantly sized countries have their own agency and be seen by the public that the government is doing their bit to protect their own citizen. At the end of the day, Euro/US/Aust aren't very different at all. In fact, governments realize this and the huge $$$ wastage in the private sector to comply with these national standards that there's a move to harmonize these bodies.

I am not saying that we shouldn't have our own AS body to protect our national interest (a political play), but just that the protection offered aren't that different. The one or two "failed" tests are just some arbitrary reference value picked by a committee based on their model of analysis. Until our AS engineers can demonstrate that they are far far superior than their O/S counterpart in analytical skills, then I'd just put that difference to scientific noise.

As for Cycling Aust doing all the checks. Well, it's fine to tow the national line and let local distributor profit, and be responsible about the general safety of their members and try to weed out unsafe products. Of course, they also have to do something to comply with their insurers requirements. But do they apply the same rule to visiting teams and cyclists? Would they do an AS sticker check at the upcoming TdU? Would Lance Armstrong's helmet (Ionos) have an AS sticker? Would Cadel Evan's Euro team issue helmet have an AS sticker? Or is there a double standard here? Further, given the factual knowledge that polystyrene degrades and weakens over time (with suggestion by engineers for replacement every 3-4 years), shouldn't CA also restrict the use of old helmets that we still see regularly at Heffron and other amateur racing venues? I would contend that old helmets provide less protection than new Euro/US approved helmets.

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jimmy
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Postby jimmy » 05 Nov 2008, 06:53

As far as international teams go, if you keep an eye on helmets in some races (especially ones that are in the US and Australia), you sometimes will see a team wearing a helmet from a brand other than their sponsor.

This usually occurs because their helmet sponsor hasn't meet the safety regulations for that particular country, so the team has to use someone else's helmet.

At the end of the day though, you are right, a $20 helmet from K-Mart (or equivilent) will give the same protection as a $300 helmet from a LBS. As I always say with helmets, pay more, get less. A $300 helmet will be lighter, and more ventilated, what you want when riding long distances at high speeds.

The other difference is that if you go to K-Mart to buy a helmet, there is no one to help you there, and you just find one that you think fits and walk out with it. Go to a LBS (and yes they do have cheaper helmets), they will advise on how to determine if a helmet fits and what to look for in it.

James

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 05 Nov 2008, 07:04

The technical bit is whether CA accepts identical modeled helmet sans AS sticker for those international riders. Then again, those riders get their helmets for free and local agents would be more than glad to have them do a bit of marketing for them.

On the LBS fitting issue. As noted in the recent discussion on certain model/s of MET helmet, many of us bought a model that flipped over our forehead easily. I'd say that LBS typically have the knowledge, but often would not volunteer it if not requested.

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Postby Frank.S87 » 05 Nov 2008, 11:41

BTW Frank, your Ionos is a M. Are you sure that's a good fit for your 11yo sister?[/quote]

she put the netted pad in the helmet last night and i think "it fits okai"
she took it for a ride around the park last night it didnt seem to obstruct her view neither was it any lose for her.

shes quite a tall girl for her age not sure how head size would work but she hasn't complained about it being too lose or too big.

her old helmet was a cheaper $30 one which did not have a system like the roc-loc or any type of adjustment. it was more like a strap with a cage on top, which was constantly sliding around.

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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 05 Nov 2008, 14:01

Eg $300 Giro helmet (no sticker) vs $20 Kmart helmet ( with sticker )
Actually the $20 Kmart helmet provides the same level of protection as the $300 Giro helmet.

What the $300 Giro helmet provides is a greater level of comfort.

Frank.S87
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Postby Frank.S87 » 05 Nov 2008, 14:12

Actually the $20 Kmart helmet provides the same level of protection as the $300 Giro helmet.

What the $300 Giro helmet provides is a greater level of comfort.
Does this mean i will be covered for my head if i were to use the GIRO with no AUS sticker if i were to receive head injuries from an accident?. being the motorist @ wrong.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 05 Nov 2008, 14:19

Does this mean i will be covered for my head if i were to use the GIRO with no AUS sticker if i were to receive head injuries from an accident?. being the motorist @ wrong.
No one covers anything, even if you had an AS sticker on your forehead. One wears a helmet to protect oneself, and choose wisely as it's your own life. Medicare will cover the bulk of your neurosurgical treatment fees. And if you look at CA's rider insurance policy, the restrictions and financial coverage is plainly pitiful. BNSW's member coverage is far broader and is practically structured to be of real value for us amateur cyclists.
Last edited by weiyun on 05 Nov 2008, 22:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Toff
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Postby Toff » 05 Nov 2008, 16:11

I haven't had to buy a helmet for myself for about 10 years. I still use my 1997 Giro Ventoux. However, at the time I bought it, I did A LOT of research into helmets and standards. Some of this info is 10 years old, but here's what I learned.

- Each country does their own safety testing, and enforces their own saftey standard.

- Safety standards are not universal. There is a lot of variance in what constitutes an acceptable helmet from country to country.

- The Australian Standard was nowhere near the best in the world. The best standard in the world was the USA SNELL Standard. For example, the Australian standard does not incorporate a load distribution test, as is required under SNELL. In fact, the Australian standard simply involves dropping a helmet from a height of 1.5m. No helmet would be likely to be moving at more than 20km/hr if dropped from that height, and most cyclists travel much faster than that speed when riding. Further, a light helmet is likely to hit the ground with lower speed, due to wind resistance, so the Australian standard is biased towards less dense helmets, rather than helmets which provide superior cushioning of impact. E.g. It is entirely possible that a styrofoam fruit box could pass AS2063! Lastly, it is usually shearing forces that cause head injuries, not direct blows, yet no test exists to compare helmets' abilities to protect against shearing forces.

- Manufacturers did not need to pass the Australian Standard to sell a helmet in Australia. The BV website still says that you can buy helmets in Oz without AS2063 certification, due to a loophole.

- Whilst Standards are useful, they should not be the only factor you rely upon when choosing a helmet. A manufacturer only needs to have one helmet pass the simulated crash test in order for a helmet to be certified. You don't know if it was the first helmet, or the 1,000th helmet that passed that test.

Statistically, the certification means nothing. If you only destroy one helmet, then you are relying on a sample size of 1 to draw conclusions about the entire population of helmets being used. Any statistician will tell you that there is no useful information that can be obtained from the smallest of sample sizes. You need to destroy somewhere around 1,500 helmets to obtain data about the population of helmets in use. Since no manufacturer will do that, the best data comes from studies of accidents. These provide an indication of which helmets actually seem to have saved lives.

- My Giro Ventoux still has stickers in it that says it passes the SNELL B90 Standard, and the Australian AS2063 standard. This is long after ALL the protective padding has eroded away. Incedentally, despite so much technical advancement in helmets over the last 10 years, the Australian standard AS2063 has not changed in any way to recognise this, whereas other countries have updated their standard (I.e. SNELL B90 is now B95).

- Anyway, if I had bought a quality helmet from overseas, and done my research, I would have no qualms about using it with or without the AS2063 sticker. I'd also be confident going up against anyone in a court of law with some of the findings I've got. (There is alot more info that I haven't brought up yet...)

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 05 Nov 2008, 16:28

:shock:

Chris, you continue to amaze me!!!

Three points,

1) I am surprised that they didn't sample test helmets at AS. Then again, I am not sure if AS does the tests or manufacturers submit audited test results for their AS certification. I'd think the later.

2) Helmet fit seemed to be the major improvement with current generation models. They are much better fitting and much more secure. That alone is worthy of consideration for an update.

3) Europeans certification should be based on the CE Mark, a strange pan-European yet regional system. Not sure how it works for bike helmets.

In the meantime, I came across this web page,
http://www.bhsi.org/standard.htm

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T-Bone
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Postby T-Bone » 05 Nov 2008, 19:19

The technical bit is whether CA accepts identical modeled helmet sans AS sticker for those international riders.
For international riders, the helmets must be UCI approved. There must also be approval by the "State Authority" for non sterile Road Events as a brief search seems to indicate the road rules requiring a standards approved helmet (i didn't dig deep enough as the info seemed a bit unclear). More info here http://www.act.cycling.org.au/new/docum ... elmets.pdf

If you never plan on doing any racing, i reckon buying overseas is fine, though you really need to know the helmet fits well, so you're better off trying one on here, in which case it's usually easier to buy here to, unless the price difference is big enough.

In the case of "K-Mart helmets", I feel safer riding with a helmet that has been designed with high speed cycling in mind, so paying a bit more is usually for the better, though you don't need the top of the line model all the time, there's nothing wrong with a discontinued model priced to clear.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 05 Nov 2008, 21:56

For international riders, the helmets must be UCI approved.
Now I understand why all those pro riders license themselves in small and strange countries, so that they can wear mail-order helmets! :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:

As for "feel safer". Given the fact that there's only one "stringent" (so we are told) test standard under AS for all bike helmets, that "feel" is subjective and scientifically unfounded. So you can start to feel safe again. ;)

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jimmy
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Postby jimmy » 06 Nov 2008, 06:56

I looked up the regulation on Cycling NSW's site.

It is under Technical Helmet Restictions and here it is

Bicycle helmets
RTA Requirements
In NSW it is compulsory for a cyclist and any passenger to wear an approved bicycle helmet correctly.
Approved helmets are clearly marked with an Australian Standard Approved Notification.

This symbol can be red or black.

Always check the helmet before purchasing to ensure that it is an approved helmet.

I think that it means that the helmet must have the Australian Standards Sticker, even if the helmet is certified to be sold in Australia, but you bought yours from overseas, then it is illegal to use it in Australia, in the eyes of the law, you are not wearing a helmet.

However, if you aren't racing, I can't see it ever being an issue. If you race and never win, it would probably be an issue. If you race, win, and have your helmet checked and you don't have the Standards Sticker, then you may stand a chance of being disqualified.

At the end of the day, the difference is between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. The Police interpet the letter of the law, and the Courts the spirit. I would like to think that the spirit of the law is that you wear an accredited bicycle helmet, so if your helmet is elligble for sale in Australia, but you bought it from overseas, then you should be fine.

James


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