Dirt Works

Bicycle related chatter & discussion
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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 04 May 2008, 21:23

Any news from our participants at Dirt Works?

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Huw
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Postby Huw » 05 May 2008, 13:47

I bumped into Lindsay as I was test-riding my MTB around the village of St Albans, which becomes one big campsite for the Dirtworks Classic. It was just before dark and he'd arrived after riding the 60 km from Windsor station on his bike. He talked about riding past the huge queues of traffic which form as people drive into St Albans. He said he just cruised straight past them all on his bike, thinking they were missing the best part of it all - the ride along the smooth dirt roads and sandstone bushland of the upper Hawkesbury. I can vouch for the fact that he'd done a rather nice job putting together a fully rigid steel singlespeed about the colour of a good German wheat beer. A solid pair of electric blue Velocity Deep-Vs (MTB width) made for an unmissable, yet reliable off-roader. He'd also remembered to get some nice fat rubber on there, a definite must for a fully rigid machine.

We drank a beer while Lindsay unloaded his panniers, set up his tent next to ours (I was there with some workmate friends) and unbolted his rack, then headed off to registration, then dinner. It gets pretty cold in St Albans (Hawesbury River banjo country) this time of year, so we were well and truly rugged up as we sat in the beer garden chatting about what we were all expecting on the big ride. These are really popular events, and my friends and I had only managed to score entries to do the 50 km ride, whereas Lindsay got in quick and scored a start for the proper 100 km "Classic". I rode the 100 km last year, and found it pretty demanding. I have several years MTB experience, and a bike with front suspension, gears and hydraulic disc brakes, but Lindsay was taking it on with no MTB experience on a much more demanding machine (linear-pull rim brakes for him). My previous experience was with very steep rocky, slippery climbs with some similarly steep, rocky descents. Gears, suspension and powerful disc brakes provide a whole lot more confidence and ability in this terrain.

As I was getting out of my tent on Sunday morning, Lindsay was dressed, fed and on his bike off to the 7:30 start. We stood around to cheer him on as he rode off into the cold fog. We took our time until we set off at 9:20, as the fog was really beginning to clear, the sun lighting up the golden sandstone bluffs that tower over St Albans.

A straightforward day for me - I was there to ride with my three friends at whatever pace they set. We headed out along a dirt road until turning off onto a farm road which hit the super-steep muddy, rocky climb up onto the ridgetops. Like last year, I rode as far as I could until the optimum combination of leg-burn and lack of available track due to bike-walkers forced me off too. By the time I'd got to the top of the climb, I was a sweaty mess.
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The 50 km trail continued along ridgelines for ~25 km with a range of small descents and rocky ankle-snappers, best tackled in a moderate gear with high cadence to generate some momentum. There's a drink stop available at 28 km, where we waited with around 100 others while an ambulance helicopter evacuated some poor soul. Reports were of broken ribs, head and a suspected lung puncture. I saw three others being treated for arm and head wounds when the chopper cleared out. Also bumped into Michael Glennon out for a touch of fresh air. Around km 37 we hit the steep descent down to the river flats, with nothing but winding dirt road to hold us back from the finish, where I was handed two beers.

I haven't yet heard from Lindsay, who hadn't made it home before I left with my workmates who were determined to get home early. The 100 km course contains an extra section where you climb back onto the ridgetops.
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My guess is Lindsay had a super big day, probably as big as a day on the pennies, and certainly harder on the wrists. Hopefully in one piece, more or less. If he didn't get a lift back into town yesterday evening, I'm guessing he camped out there last night and rode back in to Windsor early this morning.

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lindsay
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Postby lindsay » 05 May 2008, 14:20

I have now completed my first ever mountain bike event... 100km, while not the hardest thing I've ever done on a bike (the penny century's keep the crown for this) it's close to the top. With zero MTB experience, in fact I've never even ridden a bike with suspension and it remains so today, my goal was the ol' finish line at the end which I did achieve.

Plan was train to Windsor then ride to St Albans, which worked very well, the road from Wisemans Ferry to St Albans was spectatular, arriving at Windsor at 1:30pm with lunch at the shops I got to St Albans at 4pm carring my load of tent, sleeping bag mat etc. First person I laid eyes on was Hew... Who very kindly gave me a beer & introduced me to his friends. There was lots of people all setting up tents & campervans and one dude who spent the whole night cleaning & caring for his steed. Food was good & the place had the feeling there was a big event happening.

My start was for 7am with group 3 but I didn't get away until 7:15am due to a traffic jam the start. I was a bit nervous about the single speed & my gear but this was no problems, my gearing was 2 to 1 and this was just right. I had to walk up a few hills but I was faster than the riders around me everywhere else (remember I was at the back with the non-competitive riders). Where I did have trouble was down hill without suspension, that really took it out of me, sometimes I was shaking about so much I couldn't see a thing & coming off rocks was always a big jolt. I walked down a few hills when I thought it was just too much. I fell off 4 times, all minor with a bit of a knee scraper.

I finished in just under 8 hours, had my free beer, packed up my tent & racked off. I was riding like the living dead but made it to Wisemans Ferry just before 5pm. There was an over 2 hour queue of cars waiting to get across! I on the other hand rode straight onto the ferry. Then it was up the big hill from Wisemans Ferry which I walked. By this stage it was dark & I was totally toasted, my legs were turning over but that was it & I had 40km to get to Windsor. But whoa...a van pulls up with the number plate of LANCE1. A fellow bike rider leans out the window "would you like a lift mate?" Would I ever... This was James, a downhill racer & rep for Trek with the team van. I jumped in the lovely warm van & was dropped at Parramatta Station.

So a few observations -
1 - Need front suspension... I think I was the only person with a rigid front fork. Really need front suspension...
2 - Single speed no worries mate... 2 to 1 as MTB people say
3 - V brakes OK but starting to ware down towards the end
4 - Try not to fall off, there was 4 helicopter evacuations & 9 people hurt bad. I saw a broken collar bone & another bloke with a very badly banged up elbow.
5 - Road fitness goes a long way with these events, finishing was well within my abilities & had I had some springs I think I would have done better.
6 - I think I was the only person who rode to the event, lots of people saw me riding & said how good that was but did they ride??
7 - Lots of people said good things to me for riding a steel single speed, especially the guys at the mechanics tent who were very supportative.

Here's a few photos
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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 05 May 2008, 14:31

Riding over a pontoon bridge?!? :shock:

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lindsay
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Postby lindsay » 05 May 2008, 14:42

When I went over (walked btw) the guy at the other end said they'd had 9 people so far fall off.

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T-Bone
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Postby T-Bone » 05 May 2008, 15:36

Looks like fun, you'll have to let me know if you're doing it again next year, and i might join in the fun, provided i can build myself a bike in time.

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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 05 May 2008, 15:37

Glad to see it was a great day.

The pontoon bridge would of been like a red flag to a bull.

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Huw
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Postby Huw » 05 May 2008, 16:40

I want to boast that I rode the pontoon bridge last year (without falling in), and won a pair of Ritchey tyres for doing it. There were two boards side by side that would flex up and down depending on where you were relative to the next pontoon. It was like a toy that my cousins had where you had to move a ball bearing over a bridge that flexed up and down in about five different places.

I didn't get to try it again this year, since it's only available for the 100 km riders.

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Huw
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Postby Huw » 05 May 2008, 16:44

Single speeders and rigid bikes get a LOT of respect at these events.

Out of 1100-1200 riders, only 12 rode singlespeed (9 in the 100 km).
Results are available here (go to Dirtworks 100 2008).
Last edited by Huw on 05 May 2008, 16:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Adrian E
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Postby Adrian E » 05 May 2008, 16:52

That looks like one hard day in the saddle. Well done Lindsay. Love to see cyclists trying new things.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 05 May 2008, 17:06

mikesbytes wrote:The pontoon bridge would of been like a red flag to a bull.

Are you saying that you are a bull? :wink:

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eric
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Postby eric » 05 May 2008, 21:32

Well done Lindsay . Still got the shakes from the vibrations .
Interests trying this event , NRMA CareFlight Woodford to Glenbrook Classic 2008.The famous Oaks Firetrail ,this is one of the classic Blue Mountains rides. It mostly down hill 25km of fun.

http://careflight.org/help/events/woodf ... rook_2008/

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Toff
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Postby Toff » 06 May 2008, 11:39

Well done Lindsay (& Huw too).

7 hours 57 mins in the saddle for Lindsay, and that doesn't include riding home time!

That's flying the DHBC colours!

Nice bike too. No need to ruin those clean lines with heavy shocks.

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Postby mcrkennedy » 06 May 2008, 12:59

Great reports and well done to both of you.

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Postby jenx » 06 May 2008, 14:22

Well done Lindsay! A very impressive time and huge overall effort. I'd say you very much earned a ride in that van.

Nice to catch up with you up there.

The rocky Great North Road bits pretty much did me in, descending, as I do, with all the grace and elegance of a concrete block rolled down fire stairs.

Back was shot after that. Also ordered a new pair of hands. V-brakes and hardtails have definitely had their day, as far as I am concerned.

On the Jack's Track descent (about 90km on Huw's course profile above) the V-brakes largely ran out of stop, which was a bit interesting over some of those water bars.

So even more kudos to you, Lindsay, I guess, although I think the SS option was probably a pretty good one, given what the mud and sand did to drive trains on the day.

Didn't see the chopper, but there seemed to be a few more stacks than normal. Helped the same guy up twice - once after he went over backwards on a technical climb, and once after he hugged the ground on one of those "there is no line, I shall plough" rocky bits.

I saw the Wiseman's Ferry queue and kept going to Peats Ridge, coming home via the freeway. It was the long way around, but I would have nodded off in the car waiting in the queue.

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Postby simon.sharwood » 06 May 2008, 18:41

A mate of mine was one of the four copter-borne "retirements."
He has a swag of broken ribs and a nasty bump on the head. And a very, very worried wife (who was allowed to the head of the ferry queue to meet him at hospital, with kids in tow)! He's a veteran rider and ironically commutes through the heart of the city every day and has never had a scratch doing that!

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Camilla
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Postby Camilla » 07 May 2008, 08:08

That all looks & sounds fantastic. Except for your friend Simon. Hope he pulls through soon. Do they send a bill for the copter I wonder?

I asked a friend if I could borrow her MTB for next year but as she's never ridden it she's worried I'll put a scratch on it and said no!

Excellent work Lindsay & Huw. And yay for Lance1.

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Postby christian » 07 May 2008, 09:16

Good effort guys. I wish I had been able to race, maybe next year.

I'm interested in the careflight race, its only 25kms. I just can't see if it includes the road section at the end, which is just nasty, its straight up.

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Adrian E
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Postby Adrian E » 07 May 2008, 16:05

I'd hate to miss the climb up from jelly bean pool. its the best bit of the ride.

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Stuart
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Postby Stuart » 07 May 2008, 18:57

To Huw & Lindsay - great job guys and really good writing too - I was there with you. BTW - no way would you get me out there.

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Postby timyone » 08 May 2008, 08:32

fare out nice work lads!!!
And seriously huw i dont know how you did with the race, but im giving you an 8 out of ten for your race report?!! That was amazing!!

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Postby jenx » 08 May 2008, 09:22

Event photographer's efforts are now up at: www.cycle-photos.com

Preview thumbnails only, I'm afraid.

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FAswad
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Postby FAswad » 08 May 2008, 09:24

Great stuff. amazing really.

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lindsay
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Postby lindsay » 08 May 2008, 10:15

I'm number 369...

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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 08 May 2008, 10:22

lindsay wrote:I'm number 369...


Image

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lindsay
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Postby lindsay » 08 May 2008, 11:13

Classic agony face...

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Camilla
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Postby Camilla » 08 May 2008, 11:23

And one of Huw. Look Mum, no hands!

Image

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Camilla
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Postby Camilla » 08 May 2008, 11:23

assuming I could work out how to put an image in...

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Huw
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Postby Huw » 08 May 2008, 12:06

Camilla wrote:I asked a friend if I could borrow her MTB for next year but as she's never ridden it she's worried I'll put a scratch on it and said no!

Bollocks to her! A mountain bike without scratches is like a canvas without paint.

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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 08 May 2008, 13:17

Camilla wrote:And one of Huw. Look Mum, no hands!

Image


You linked to the page and not the image. We'll make a forum nerd out of you yet...

Image

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Camilla
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Postby Camilla » 09 May 2008, 15:20

Bollocks to her! A mountain bike without scratches is like a canvas without paint.


I know! Sheesh! I was trying to do her a favour! Her poor bike sits there never being loved. And it's a very impressive machine. She said she suspected me of wanting to use it for "experimental purposes", which is entirely true, but isn't that the point? I am however quietly confidant. I've a year to work on it...

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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 09 May 2008, 15:24

Camilla wrote:
Bollocks to her! A mountain bike without scratches is like a canvas without paint.


I know! Sheesh! I was trying to do her a favour! Her poor bike sits there never being loved. And it's a very impressive machine. She said she suspected me of wanting to use it for "experimental purposes", which is entirely true, but isn't that the point? I am however quietly confidant. I've a year to work on it...


She was right not to lend it to you

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 09 May 2008, 15:41

Camilla, you are on the verge of your next cycling spending spree... A road bike and a MTB! And if Lindsay should get to you, a track bike on top.

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lindsay
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Postby lindsay » 09 May 2008, 15:51

Camilla, you are on the verge of your next cycling spending spree... A road bike and a MTB! And if Lindsay should get to you, a track bike on top.


One does not stock one's bicycle fleet by type... One does it by colour, a blue bike, a red bike, silver etc until one has all one's possible moods covered.

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Postby timyone » 09 May 2008, 16:20

lindsay wrote:
Camilla, you are on the verge of your next cycling spending spree... A road bike and a MTB! And if Lindsay should get to you, a track bike on top.


One does not stock one's bicycle fleet by type... One does it by colour, a blue bike, a red bike, silver etc until one has all one's possible moods covered.
speak for your self!!
i do mine by class. Top class being the track bike, followed by useless mountain bikes found around the place, and finally road bikes :D

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Postby othy » 09 May 2008, 16:35

timyone wrote:
lindsay wrote:
Camilla, you are on the verge of your next cycling spending spree... A road bike and a MTB! And if Lindsay should get to you, a track bike on top.


One does not stock one's bicycle fleet by type... One does it by colour, a blue bike, a red bike, silver etc until one has all one's possible moods covered.
speak for your self!!
i do mine by class. Top class being the track bike, followed by useless mountain bikes found around the place, and finally road bikes :D


Then there are borrowed bikes, which are for breaking!

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 09 May 2008, 17:08

othy wrote:Then there are borrowed bikes, which are for breaking!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

timyone
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Postby timyone » 09 May 2008, 22:49

lol i break one bike...?!

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Camilla
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Postby Camilla » 10 May 2008, 11:02

In all seriousness, i do want a new bike. I am in the thinking phase and am currently taken by Orbea. I suspect because they're not branded all over with American flags and are not ugly. I'd like some advice though. What do people think of this:

http://www.orbea.com.au/bikes/road_bicycles/dauphine

it is white.

or I could get a girls bike:

http://www.orbea.com.au/bikes/womens_bicycles/onix_dama

carbon frame but the bits don't seem as good? And, let's face it, do I really need a carbon frame.

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micklan
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Postby micklan » 10 May 2008, 11:42



I had a white bike - it's hard to keep clean? a guy said to me he's wary of white bikes, based on some sort of empirical data...

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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 10 May 2008, 12:35

Camilla wrote:In all seriousness, i do want a new bike. I am in the thinking phase and am currently taken by Orbea. I suspect because they're not branded all over with American flags and are not ugly. I'd like some advice though. What do people think of this:

http://www.orbea.com.au/bikes/road_bicycles/dauphine

it is white.

or I could get a girls bike:

http://www.orbea.com.au/bikes/womens_bicycles/onix_dama

carbon frame but the bits don't seem as good? And, let's face it, do I really need a carbon frame.


With the womans vs mens bike, you need to determine which one fits your body shape best.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 10 May 2008, 13:19

Camilla wrote:In all seriousness, i do want a new bike. I am in the thinking phase and am currently taken by Orbea. I suspect because they're not branded all over with American flags and are not ugly. I'd like some advice though. What do people think of this:

http://www.orbea.com.au/bikes/road_bicycles/dauphine

it is white.

or I could get a girls bike:

http://www.orbea.com.au/bikes/womens_bicycles/onix_dama

carbon frame but the bits don't seem as good? And, let's face it, do I really need a carbon frame.

Talk to Donna who rides with us occasionally on Sundays. She has just upgraded to a full CF women specific Orbea bike. She loves it based on what she said last Sun.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 10 May 2008, 13:20

micklan wrote:I had a white bike - it's hard to keep clean? a guy said to me he's wary of white bikes, based on some sort of empirical data...

Did you know that white is the new black? You just have to keep it clean that's all, which should be done irrespective of the colour. :wink:

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Postby othy » 10 May 2008, 13:22

What's wrong with a dirty bike!

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 10 May 2008, 13:37

othy wrote:What's wrong with a dirty bike!

It makes your white shoes stand out. :P

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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 10 May 2008, 17:32

The molecules in red paint are packed tighter, which improves aerodynamics.

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Stuart
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Postby Stuart » 10 May 2008, 20:32

One of Jo's female staff has an Orbea Diva and loves it. They are about 5K though! That Dama looks hot as well.

I have a white and black bike - I don't really clean it that often but I don't think it's an issue. It has Ultegra and currently costs $1650 without the pedals, but it is a boys bike so has wider bars, long stem etc. but they would probably change stuff like that for you.

http://thebikebarn.com.au/product.php?productid=16245&cat=0&page=1

Still, if you can afford the Orbea, go for it if it fits you cause I reckon they look great and it will most likely be significantly lighter than the Merida's 10kg.

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Huw
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Postby Huw » 12 May 2008, 13:36

I mentioned that singlespeeders get a LOT of respect. Well, Lindsay has apparently been voted winner of the 100 km singlespeed category by the choice of the people. It's all going on in the MTB forum FARKIN, here (go to post #100 at the bottom of the page).

There's a bit of misinformation/embellishment going on with the actual facts, but the admiration of the people for Lindsay's accomplishment is clear to see!

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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 12 May 2008, 13:47

Ha, see it's Rob who did the vote;

alchemist wrote:I think the officially SS recognised win is going to have to go to Lindsay Munks, who rode out to St Albans on Saturday with his BoB trailer, raced rigid SS with V-brakes (I know from experience how hard that is) and then rode home (although he did get a lift up the hill from Wisemans Ferry). Reportedly this was a lot easier than a Penny Farthing Century (100 miles of course)


Those that don't know Rob, he lives in Ashfield and rides Track (Dunc Gray), Cyclecross and Mountain Bike's.

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Postby alchemist » 12 May 2008, 16:39

Huw wrote:There's a bit of misinformation/embellishment going on with the actual facts, but the admiration of the people for Lindsay's accomplishment is clear to see!


Facts we don't care about facts!

History of the DW100 SS Hardmen

2005 - Me! :wink: Back when the course had 3 big hills and 3 technical descents
2006 - Josh Beck - first official SS winner (the infamous hike-a-bike year)
2007 - Juzzy, Nigel & Brownie (rode it fixed, included some very ingenious Macguverneering to repair both side of Brownies hub as he stripped the threads of both sides
2008 - Lindsay

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Postby othy » 12 May 2008, 17:06

Huw wrote:There's a bit of misinformation/embellishment going on with the actual facts, but the admiration of the people for Lindsay's accomplishment is clear to see!


Apparently he had to ride with one leg for most of it after being attacked by a bear! Lindsay was showing us the wounds on the weekend.
Last edited by othy on 12 May 2008, 17:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Huw
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Postby Huw » 12 May 2008, 17:07

Hi Alchemist - nice to see you posting here!

Do you have an official trophy/award for the hardest of the hard for each year? Perhaps a large rock from the highest point of the day (Womerah Range @ km 82), a dusty piece of cheese (hardperson's meal), or a small square of tarp (the hardperson's down sleeping bag)?

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Postby alchemist » 12 May 2008, 17:47

No trophy, just the people's ovation and fame forever.

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Postby timbat » 12 May 2008, 17:54

Sheesh, need a kidney next year to make the list ? ;-)

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Postby alchemist » 12 May 2008, 18:02

timbat wrote:Sheesh, need a kidney next year to make the list ? ;-)


To make that list you need to improve your pre-race (or during race) drinking routine. :wink:

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Toff
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Postby Toff » 13 May 2008, 09:57

Has anyone done it unicycle, and would that qualify for Hardman?

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Postby mikesbytes » 13 May 2008, 10:03

Unicycle. That would be challenging. OK, who's going to do it on a penny?

There was talk of doing an imperial century. by adding an additional loop.

Could run out of daylight hours.

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Camilla
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Postby Camilla » 13 May 2008, 17:43

First of all can I say how glad I am that this thread has gone back to the theme of how tough Lindsay is. I didn't mean to hijack it with talk of my potential new bike. Secondly, to hijack it again, thanks for all the food for thought. Given that I find it tedious to clean anything much - my car, the dishes, my hair - white is possibly not a good idea. I will have to think of a new mood other than virginal. And no, sadly, Stuart, I do not have a lazy 5K. I was thinking more the dama than the diva. I like the look of that Potenza though!
http://thebikebarn.com.au/product.php?p ... 292&page=1
Mainly because I know Potenza well. We dig near it. It is the most ludicrous name for a bike I can think of - Potenza is not only widely considered the crappest city in Italy (sorry if I just offended a Potenti), but I've never ever seen anyone on a bike in its vicinity. Ted points out that it does mean "power" though. So the Potenza Rapido. Powerful and fast. Could do me some good.

But back to Lindsay, Huw and the tough men.

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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 13 May 2008, 19:05

Nice bike, can you buy matching shoes?

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fenn_paddler
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Postby fenn_paddler » 14 May 2008, 08:12

Camilla wrote:First of all can I say how glad I am that this thread has gone back to the theme of how tough Lindsay is. I didn't mean to hijack it with talk of my potential new bike. Secondly, to hijack it again, thanks for all the food for thought. Given that I find it tedious to clean anything much - my car, the dishes, my hair - white is possibly not a good idea. I will have to think of a new mood other than virginal. And no, sadly, Stuart, I do not have a lazy 5K. I was thinking more the dama than the diva. I like the look of that Potenza though!
http://thebikebarn.com.au/product.php?p ... 292&page=1
Mainly because I know Potenza well. We dig near it. It is the most ludicrous name for a bike I can think of - Potenza is not only widely considered the crappest city in Italy (sorry if I just offended a Potenti), but I've never ever seen anyone on a bike in its vicinity. Ted points out that it does mean "power" though. So the Potenza Rapido. Powerful and fast. Could do me some good.

But back to Lindsay, Huw and the tough men.


It would be worth finding out if it comes with the 2006/2007 Mavic Aksium wheels as shown in the photo, rather than Alex wheels described in the spec. The mavic's are bulletproof.

Cheers,
Alan

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Stuart
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Postby Stuart » 14 May 2008, 11:54

fenn_paddler wrote: It would be worth finding out if it comes with the 2006/2007 Mavic Aksium wheels as shown in the photo, rather than Alex wheels described in the spec. The mavic's are bulletproof. Cheers,
Alan


OK - The bike doesn't come with the 2006/2007 Mavic Aksium's as shown unless you pay an extra $200. I know this because I looked at it as well before I bought my Merida off these guys and very nearly went for the carbon. In fact Jo & I have bought 4 bikes off them so far. They are good guys, have great customer service, free service on any bike you buy for 1 year and will give you a discount I'm sure, just tell them Joanne & Stuart sent you and ask for Rob!

The Potenza range is their own (I'm 99% sure) - kind of like Cell Bikes brand but a little better I'd venture to say. They also had a non carbon model with Shimano 105's for around $1400 - my brother bought one and really likes it. Then again, the Orbea Dama looks the goods to me. Best to buy one that fits you well really and feels good to ride.

Now back to MB riding. Maybe you need a new thread Camilla!

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mikesbytes
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Postby mikesbytes » 14 May 2008, 13:43

Stuart wrote:Maybe you need a new thread Camilla!


Yeh Camilla, if you persist in this off topic posting you'll be struck off the christmas card list.

Besides, we have this thread set up specifically for off topic

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Camilla
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Postby Camilla » 16 May 2008, 10:14

I know, I know! I'm trying to keep very quiet ... but lurking all the same.

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lindsay
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Postby lindsay » 16 May 2008, 10:27

you'll be struck off the christmas card list.


I never got on the list in the first place & I'm SS hardman 2008.

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Toff
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Postby Toff » 16 May 2008, 10:40

lindsay wrote:
you'll be struck off the christmas card list.


I never got on the list in the first place & I'm SS hardman 2008.

Perhaps you should wait until Christmas 2008, Lindsay?


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