Heffron Park 8 March

[FAswad]

Any takers?

What time is C Grade (Previously B).

I am thinking of turning up this afternoon, and the only thing holding me back is I might have contracted a mild cold from my boy...

Most probably will turn up, though

[mikesbytes]

5pm

I'll be there

[mikesbytes]

Please congratulate Chris on his win in E grade and Nick C on his 3rd in D grade.

[weiyun]

Nice jobs! But didn't Chris enter E last week and was asked to upgrade? Or are we talking about another Chris?

[williamd]

Weiyun

It was a different Chris (toff) this week.

The other Chris wasn't at HP this week.

[weiyun]

Ok. Thanks for the clarification.

No wonder there were so many missing this morning at the Slowies. Everyone's saving their legs.

[williamd]

E grade report

I turned up at HP at about 3.30pm looked around and couldn't see any Dulwich Hill riders.

As I was preparing for the race Chris (toff) turned up.

Two minutes to the start of the race and Chris said his tyre needs air.
He borrows Beanzy's pump but after pumping the tyre up there is a hiss of air. The tube has sprung a leak.
The tube is being changed as the race starts Chris will join in after a lap.

After a few laps a big guy from Ranwick orders Chris to take the lead and after a lap with Chris leading there are only 4 riders in the leading bunch. I also have a go in the lead.
I took the lead on the last lap and had three sucking my wheels until I got on the main straight when they sprinted past.
The plan had worked and Chris then gave it to the Randwick riders in the sprint to the finish.
I got another fourth place again.

Congratulations Chris you rode a great race and now your in D grade with the other Chris.

[micklan]

Excellent racing guys - congrats. Bill your not far off the money mate.

[williamd]

Report D grade race

The race started slowly but soon picked up pace with the riders circulating at 37k/h Michael C was soon mixing it with the leaders, Nick was also up there.The pace was very fast and several riders were dropped and retired. Lindsay and Beanzy retired after being dropped.

With the finish line in sight and a certain place finish Michael's legs seized up and his race was over.He rolled over to the side of the road devastated.

Nick had managed to push to the finish taking third place.

Congratulation Nick on third place.
Bad luck Michael -one less lap and you would have been a winner.

[mikesbytes]

D grade report

We had 5 riders in Dgrade;
- Lindsay
- Nick C
- Matt (not Beanzy)
- Paul on his first race
- and yours truley

Lindsay started near the front and after a little while was joined by Nick and Myself, the pace went up with constant attacks and Lindsay disappeared. Up at the pointy end Matt joined us, but with the high pace and constant attacks the 3 of us kept getting near the front and moving backwards.

At one point D grade was crushed together in particular Matt who was badly boxed in and I had visions of a pileup with Matt being in the middle, I was ready to go grass tracking.

Later in the race there was a break off the front and Lindsay reappeared to chase it down with Beanzy finishing it off. I don't know his name, but whenever I attack off the front there's a RBCC rider with Blue Shimano shoes who nearly always comes with me and sure enough he did.

Later there was break of 6 riders off the front with me in it and I looked back and I could see Nick amongst the chashers and then Nick jumps out of the chashers and bridges the gap. I could see Lindsay at the side taking photos.

Come last lap a rider tried to ride off the front, I got his wheel with Nick on mine. For me it was to come to naught, I had suffered constant cramps, full details here and in the end they got too severe and I quit the race with just under 1k to go. Nick however got 3rd place.

Edit: Forgot to mention that average speed is looking like 37kph and I don't recall being overtaken by C or B grade.

[Toff]

I'll add a few comments about E-Grade...

I joined fresh after sitting out the first lap, but the pace felt pretty relaxed, so I don't think I had an advantage over anyone. I'd only been there for a lap, slowly moving up the pace line from the back, when Rocky had a go at me for not working. I was in 3rd wheel, and hadn't got to the front yet! Anyway, not wanting to be considered a shirker, I went to the front, and pulled them round for about a lap. (Details get a bit blurry...) After I rolled off, I noticed we were down to just four riders. Me, Bill, Rocky & Leanne.

Great, I thought. Only need to blow away one more rider, and I'm in the placings. Unfortunately, the rider that got spat was was Bill. It happened when we caught F grade about a lap later. I decided to go to the front to ensure a smooth transition past them, and when I looked back there were 3 of us.

The pace eased a bit, for the next couple of laps, and guess what? Bill got back on. I was pretty impressed by the effort. I let him sit at the back to get his breath back, but Rocky was having none of it. He yelled at Bill to do a turn. I said to Rocky that he had just chased us down, and to give him a break. Rocky's reply: "If he's got energy to cross, he's got energy to do a turn."

That's what Bill did. It was a strong turn too, and made us all hurt. I hung on the back. In the end it was suicide. He controlled the race right up to the last lap, and gave me the chance for some shelter before I launched for the sprint.

When I collected my prizemoney from John Buckton, he grinned and said. "Welcome to D Grade"!

Thanks to Beanzy for the quick tyre change. Much appreciated...


My lucky passenger for the race. Note the DHBC colours...


I was going to say that Claire is my biggest fan, but it's probably mere technically correct to say she's my smallest fan...

[mikesbytes]

E grade Photos

The men themselves;


Chris

Bill

Chris was so fast that he was a blur in the camera lense


His pace had split E grade so there was only 3 riders remaining with Bill chasing.

Bill repeated his efforts of the last race, after being dropped, he climbed back on


Bill Chasing

Bill back on

The finish


Chris stamps his authority with a convincing win


Bill with another convincing 4th

[mikesbytes]

D grade photos

The riders

Nick


Paul


Lindsay


Matt

Nick Cooper's 3rd Place

[weiyun]

Nice report and photos. Obviously that Lady Bug found the right MAN!

[Adrian E]

Well done to everyone who raced and congrats to Chris on his big win. That D grade race sound like something special.... 37km/h is getting quiet fast.

[lindsay]

Hi Guys,

Well done everyone, especially our place getters... A couple of photos from my camera.

[Beanzy]

D Grade race report : Addition (from Beanzy's POV)

Very fast pace, constant attacks. I chased down attack with Lindsey i think on lap 10 hoping to drag bunch with me as the attackers were quite capable of going off on their own. When i caught them, they attacked again but i was spent after the chase but the bunch was back with them. My job (and me) was done. I joined Lindsey in warming down..

By my clock when i pulled out (lap 10 or 11, its a bit of a blur, will have to downlad data to take a look) avg speed was a whisker under 37km/h. I do not know overall average yet.

Cheers

Beanzy

[paul]

Thanks for posting the photos, that's me in the pink and white jersey holding my helmet. Saturday was my first race. After spending the morning helping out at the Gear Up Girl ladies cycling event, I fueled up with a banana, loaded the bike on the car and after a few navigational issues found Heffron.

D grade was a bit quicker than I expected, but I was hanging on through 9 laps when I scraped a pedal on one of those sharp, uphill bends and nearly fell off. This upset my concentration and I was spat out the back. I couldn't get back on. So it was all over after 10 laps. But great fun.

Thanks to Lindsay for organizing my license and taking me through the sign on.

Cheers

Paul

[mikesbytes]

Hi Paul, I have updated my report.

Congratulations on your first race and bear in mind that that's likely to be the fastest D grade race that I have personally being in.

Have to say it was a really good race, with plenty of action, you couldn't of wished for a greater learning experience in your first race.

[geoff m]

Fantastic results. Congrats all and esp to Chris, and Nick.

Well done for some of our newest members to also give it a go. Paul only signed up 2 weeks or so ago, and had a crack at D grade. Was eating his banana bread beside me today at Bobo's and he didn't even mention the race!

[mikesbytes]

Official results from RBCC are out

http://www.randwickbotanycc.com/Results ... r_2008.htm

It shows that D grade averaged 36.9kph, so not quite the 37kph I was expecting. It was also 0.2kph faster than C grade. B and C grade both did an extra lap, I don't know the reason.

[fixedgear]

Official results from RBCC are out

http://www.randwickbotanycc.com/Results ... r_2008.htm

It shows that D grade averaged 36.9kph, so not quite the 37kph I was expecting. It was also 0.2kph faster than C grade. B and C grade both did an extra lap, I don't know the reason.

Somthing is wrong with the RBCC calculations.

14 laps of the 2.04 km circut is 28.56 km.
The race time is given as 45 minutes 57 seconds (or 45.95 minutes)

28.56 km divided by 45.95 multiplied by 60 equals 37.29 kph.

I can't figure out how RBCC came up with their speed calculation even allowing for the mistaken use of a 28.00 km distance.

[mikesbytes]

Beanzy, can you ask them to check their calculation. Seems we may be doing our selves out of 0.39kph

[fixedgear]

After a bit of messing around with the abacus I seem to have found where RBCC have gone wrong with the calculations.

It seems (1) the distance used has been taken as 28.00 km rather than the correct 28.56 km AND
(2) 45 minutes and 57 seconds has been incorrectly decimalised as 45.57 rather than the correct 45.95.

Using the the incorrect figures:

28.00 / 45.57 x 60 = 36.87 or ~ 36.9 kph.

Using the correct figures:

28.56 / 45.95 x 60 = 37.29 kph.

[weiyun]

OMG... Basic math error!

[mikesbytes]

Peter, is this how the formula works?

(Laps*2.04) / (Hours*60 + Minutes + (Seconds * 100/60)/100)

[fixedgear]

In plain English:

(Total race distance in km, found from number of laps multiplied by 2.04 km) divided by (race time expressed in minutes) muitiplied by 60 equals average kph.

Race time expressed in minutes means converting seconds into decimal fraction of a minute, you do this by dividing seconds by 60.


Example: (1) Race time 45 minutes 57 seconds
57/60 = 0.95 plus the 45 minutes = 45.95

(2) Race time 48 minutes 7 seconds
7/60 = 0.11666 plus the 48 minutes = 48.11666

[mikesbytes]

So its

(Laps*2.04) / (Hours*60 + Minutes + (Seconds * 100/60)/100) * 60

[fixedgear]

So its

(Laps*2.04) / (Hours*60 + Minutes + (Seconds * 100/60)/100) * 60

No quite, it would be:

(Laps*2.04) /Hours*60 + Minutes + (Seconds/60) * 60

Simply put though: Distance/Time = Ave Speed.

However as we want our end figure in km per hr rather than km per min, we need to do either one of two things in our equation, ie (a) express our time in decimal hours or (b) express our time in decimal minutes, then multiply the end result by 60.

In most cases it's a simpler calculation to use decimal minutes and then multiply the end result by 60.

For example to convert 45 minutes, 57 seconds to decimal hours, we first need to convert to decimal minutes anyway:

45:57 57/60 = 0.95 + 45 = 45.95 min

45.95/60 = 0.7658333 hours.

28.56 / 0.765833 = 37.292711 kph.

Or more simply

45:57 57/60 = 0.95 + 45 = 45.95 min

(28.56 / 45.95) x 60 = 37.292711 kph.

[Beanzy]

My 2c..

No matter what distance or time you use the quoted average can be used as comparison between grades as they are all calculated the same way. They therefore provide the best analysis on a week to week basis.

The quoted figure on RBCC website is also close to my recorded figure before i pulled out. My recorded average has also been close to the stated figure in previous weeks. Well within an "error"range.

In stating the above i accept there is a minor discrepancy in the figures, but this may be a "Microsoft"(my apologies for swearing) issue. We use excel based software (i think) and i can tell you from experience excel does not like time/angle (hours,min,sec/degrees,min,sec) and it is very hard to get it to convert to decimal and calculate and back successfully (at least when i was writing spreadsheets 7 years ago). I will be learning the system we use in the next month or two so i will try to look into it then. In any case the quoted speed is within about 1% of "actual".

I also reckon the course is closer to 2.02km but again this is within 1% so it does not matter.

I can also tell you having worked as time keeper and lap counter you may be +-10 secs on the overall time. Sometimes we have to see who is first/second/third rather than the overall time.

No matter which way you look at it D Grade was still quicker than C grade.

Maybe next time we can all bring out our highly calibrated bike computers acurate to the millimetre and millisecond then compare data and then calculate an average speed. Remember, the more data we have the better the result will be to the "actual" average speed. We might need 100 data sets to really get a result

See ya on the bike soon.

Regards,

Beanzy

[mikesbytes]

Beanzy I agree that what is more important is the comparison of times between grades and times of different weeks. Average time doesn't necessarily reflect how difficult the race was.

I have noticed that Waratah vet racing at the Tennis Centre seemed to provide a higher average speed for about the same effort. This is of course in part due to a better surface and less wind.

Anyway us D graders can all give ourselves a pat on the back for beating C grade

Did anyone get moved up to C grade?

[mikesbytes]

OK, I'm going thru the official photo's

E Grade

[mikesbytes]

D grade

[fixedgear]

My 2c..

No matter what distance or time you use the quoted average can be used as comparison between grades as they are all calculated the same way. They therefore provide the best analysis on a week to week basis.

The quoted figure on RBCC website is also close to my recorded figure before i pulled out. My recorded average has also been close to the stated figure in previous weeks. Well within an "error"range.

In stating the above i accept there is a minor discrepancy in the figures, but this may be a "Microsoft"(my apologies for swearing) issue. We use excel based software (i think) and i can tell you from experience excel does not like time/angle (hours,min,sec/degrees,min,sec) and it is very hard to get it to convert to decimal and calculate and back successfully (at least when i was writing spreadsheets 7 years ago). I will be learning the system we use in the next month or two so i will try to look into it then. In any case the quoted speed is within about 1% of "actual".

I also reckon the course is closer to 2.02km but again this is within 1% so it does not matter.

I can also tell you having worked as time keeper and lap counter you may be +-10 secs on the overall time. Sometimes we have to see who is first/second/third rather than the overall time.

No matter which way you look at it D Grade was still quicker than C grade.

Maybe next time we can all bring out our highly calibrated bike computers acurate to the millimetre and millisecond then compare data and then calculate an average speed. Remember, the more data we have the better the result will be to the "actual" average speed. We might need 100 data sets to really get a result

See ya on the bike soon.

Regards,

Beanzy

Matt, the circut distance of 2.04 km is as quoted on the RBCC website. Apparently it was formally measued by John Buckton as such when the distance markings that you see on the middle of the track surface were painted.

In terms of grade comparison the use of 2.04 or 2.00 km as the circut length won't matter but in the incorrect decimalistion, the percentage error will vary upwards from times ending in 0 seconds (0 per cent error) to 59 seconds (60 percent error ie 59 seconds is 0.9833, not 0.59). As this is not a constant the calculated average speeds start to be in error by varying amounts.

However looking at the corrected average speeds for 8 March as follows:

A Grade 40.80 km 58:57 (40.80/58.95)x60 = 41.53 kph
B Grade 38.76 km 1:00:04 (38.76/60.0666)x60 = 38.72 kph
C Grade 34.68 km 56:12 (34.68/56.20)x60 = 37.02 kph
D Grade 28.56 km 45:57 (28.56/45.95)x60 = 37.29 kph
E Grade 20.40 km 36:25 (20.40/36.4166)x60 = 33.61 kph
F Grade 16.32 km 33:34 (16.32/33.5666)x60 = 29.17 kph


I agree some very interesting grade comparison is evident, in particular the enormous 3.68 kph difference between D and E average speeds. Looking at past results as well there is usually a 3 kph or greater speed difference between these two grades when the difference should be no more than 2 kph at the most, and preferably 1 or 1.5 kph. You'd have to think that there should be an 'in beween' grade that would be averaging 34.0 - 35.5 kph. Perhaps RBCC could look at creating this new 'E' Grade and renaming the current E Grade "F" and F Grade "G".

[Toff]

The D grade bunch is much bigger than lower grades. Based on this fact alone, it stands to reason that the pace should be higher.

[fixedgear]

The D grade bunch is much bigger than lower grades. Based on this fact alone, it stands to reason that the pace should be higher.

Exactly, which leads back to my point, D grade could easily have a number of it's struggling ( ie getting dropped) riders go to a 'new' E grade which would have the stronger of the existing E Grade in the mix as well. The weaker of the existing E grade would be renamed F Grade and the existing F renamed G.

Still at the end of the day, it's up to RBCC, it's committee and handicapper as to how they structure their gradings etc. Cyclists from outside of RBCC can make their own choices as to if they race in RBCC events or elsewhere, based on their competiveness within a grade or any other factor.

[mikesbytes]

What I think will happen to D is that the successful stronger riders will get moved up to C each week until eventually 2008 D = 2007 D

[micklan]

E grade would welcome a bigger field of riders

[weiyun]

The present D grade is a major bottle neck.

As demonstrated by the data, there are many present D grade riders who are strong enough to stay in the C bunch. And based on personal experience, no E grade riders or recent upgraded D grade riders can stay with the D grade bunch for a full race. The step up is very large and it's "drop city" for new D grade riders.

So I think FixedGear has the right logic.

If the grades are evened up, there can be more racing action for everyone, especially those who are relatively new to the scene in the lower grades. The result of "Drop City" is a solo TT effort, not too different to a solo ride in the park.

[mikesbytes]

About 75% of the riders in D grade are capacable of sitting in on C grade. The difference between C and D grades isn't as great as the difference between D and E.

[weiyun]

So in other words, they are moving E graders up too quickly. One win and you are up, and enjoy "drop city". What's the point?

I understand that in the US system, they require riders to gain quite a considerable Cat 5 experience before allowing them to move up to the next category. They use Cat 5 to enforce a solid racing experience and a rider needs to gain a number of points before being moved up.

[mikesbytes]

There is no perfect system. RBCC seem to have been addressing problems with A grade which in part was the grade renumbering. Possibly when it went wrong was moving riders up from 2007 D grade in the second half of last year has left D grade depleted.

Edit: I am not critising RBCC, grading is a difficult thing to do and I'm sure they are doing heaps better than I would personally be able to do.

[williamd]

Anyone going to HP tomorrow.

[weiyun]

I agree, there's no criticism here but discussing the background logic to some of these issues. Implementation of a perfect system is damn near impossible.

No racing for me as I've been screwed by a cold for the whole week. I'd be lucky to ride Centennial tomorrow.

[micklan]

Bill I will go to HP for the E grade 4pm. ) won't be on the slowies am ride

[jimmy]

As I see it, the problem hasn't changed from the old C Grade.

There are a lot of people who are competitive at D Grade, but aren't prepared to make the leap to C Grade because, heaven forbid, it a) might hurt, and b) they might not win.

Well, welcome to life. Every now and again, the handicappers get strict and they will force a heap of people up to the next grade. By the sound of things, this needs to be done with the present D Grade. That will bring the average of D Grade down to where it should be (probably about 35km/hr). Yes this would increase the size of C Grade, but it would solve the speed issue in D Grade and it probably wouldn't hurt the average of C Grade.

At the end of the day, you don't get faster by riding at your comfort zone, if you really want to improve, you need to ride above your it. Obviously there is a limit to how fast you can go, but at that point, you end up in a grade that is right for you.

This is hearsay, but I think that it is appropriate for racing, especially at Heffron on Saturdays where there is always a lot of excuses.

Handicapper: "Your Ability is my problem, your Training is Yours"

Translation, I don't care how few kilometers you got in last week, how long it has been since you last raced, how sick you have been. You are capable of riding in a certain grade, and that is where you are going to be. No Ifs, No Buts. As harsh as it sounds, this is how the handicapper should be. From the handicapper's point of view, it is probably better to annoy one person (they put them in too high a grade), than about 20 (they put someone in a grade too low).

In relation to the track distance, the 2.04km distance is probably taken along a line down the middle of the track, on an oval, it would be the inner edge, but in a circuit like that you would probably measure it down the middle because the corners go both ways. When was the last time you did a single lap along that line?

And for working out average speed? Here is what I use

(laps*2.04)/(hours + minutes/60 + seconds/3600) = average speed (km/hr)

obviously, you can just replace laps*2.04 for the distance if you trust it.

James

[Beanzy]

Further to previous posts on average speed calculations:

I enquired with the powers that be and the calculations are correct regarding decilmisation etc. However the course distance used in the calculations is 2.02km.

This pretty much what i measure each week via my speedo.

HTH

Regards

Beanzy