Cruiser 28's seem more like the Middies?

Road cycling & upcoming rides
Richard
Posts: 266
Joined: 06 Sep 2009, 21:04
Location: Ashfield

Postby Richard » 03 Aug 2010, 19:58

Anyone else noticed that the Cruiser 28's seem to be travelling more like the Middies pace.
Last week the average was 31.9km

Seems like many of the Middies are now in the 28's.

Do we still get the numbers reliably to have a middies group?

christian
Posts: 837
Joined: 30 Oct 2007, 19:21
Location: Earlwood

Postby christian » 03 Aug 2010, 20:06

A comment was made to me about this last night. It seems that there are a lot of middies that now choose to ride with the C28's. I have no idea why this is. Can anyone enlighten me? If the C28's are now averaging around 31kms then the people who are pushing the pace NEED to move up to the middies otherwise it defeats the purpose of having a C28 bunch.

In reality if you can average the Waterfall ride at 31km/h without dying then you can probably hold on the fast bunch (you may die initially) till at least Sutherland. The way to get better is to be pushed, but pushing the pace of a bunch like the C28's isn't acceptable.

Richard
Posts: 266
Joined: 06 Sep 2009, 21:04
Location: Ashfield

Postby Richard » 03 Aug 2010, 20:28

I agree. Time to sort the groups and get a regular healthy sized Middies group happening again. I'm keen.

Mind you after suffering the effects of a party last Saturday night I would have been quite content with a Cruiser 15's!

Anthony
Posts: 148
Joined: 13 Sep 2009, 12:34
Location: Marrickville

Postby Anthony » 03 Aug 2010, 22:39

I am partly to blame for this. I did one turn on the front and it was probably not at 28's pace. But the 28's were quick on the weekend, i ended up averaging 31km/h and pretty much sat in with the 28's the whole way. I'll start riding with the middies from now on :)

User avatar
Stuart
Posts: 2568
Joined: 11 Mar 2008, 10:43
Location: Dulwich Hill

Postby Stuart » 04 Aug 2010, 08:45

I totally agree with Christian and Richard here. There are many riders who should be riding with the middies who are in the C28's week in and week out. This defeats the purpose of having two cruisers bunches and means that many weekends there is no middies bunch at all. As a flow on from this, C25 riders who are ready to step up have no where to go as the C28 bunch is too big a step-up (really being a M31-32 bunch), once again defeating the purpose of having multiple bunches.

I think that the club needs to use its coaches to run the cruisers bunches and sit on the front to make sure that the pace is as advertised! We have of course tried this before and it has not got off the ground except for C25's with Lindsay / Geoff S and yours truly. One problem being that faster riders find it hard to go slower and when one rider pushes the pace the rest follow. Really, I can't understand why riders still wish to ride in a bunch that should be averaging 28kph when they can easily ride considerably faster. Remember too that the average is for the whole ride, meaning that the pace out to Waterfall should be around 2 kph slower than the whole ride average.

Last Sun the C25's averaged 27.5 but there were only 4 of us (Geoff S retired hurt - hope that groin gets better fast Geoff!) and we were comfortable with that pace on the day (avg 25kph to Waterfall) but without Mark's pace making on the Waterfall - Sutherland leg we wouldn't have done 27.5, and he was only there 'cause he slept in and couldn't get on to the 28's 'cause they had rocketed off into the distance.

Next Sunday lets see the fast C28's step up to middies and lets make sure that there is a coach for C28's who is going to ride at that pace. Coaches?

PeterOS
Posts: 145
Joined: 16 Jul 2008, 13:39

Postby PeterOS » 04 Aug 2010, 08:55

I'm glad you posted this Anthony Middies numbers have been down for a while now, and if you averaged 31.9km in c28 on the weekend according to me Middies only averaged 31.1km so what's going on there! with only 7 on the way up and 5 on the way back it was a lot harder ride because you seemed to be always leading but if there were more riders it would be alot better ride, and you get to sleep in an extra 10mins.
In saying that I will be away next Sunday due to the C2S but I hope the week after its all back to normal again.

christian
Posts: 837
Joined: 30 Oct 2007, 19:21
Location: Earlwood

Postby christian » 04 Aug 2010, 09:03

I'll admit that I've been a bit slack in the role of coaching coordinator of late. As Stuart has mentioned, most previous attempts to fix these problems have failed. The splitting of the cruisers bunch was Lindsay's idea, and that did work initially. I have avoided rostering the coaches as they don't always ride, or are away racing. I would still like to be able to sort all this out without resorting to this.

We can sort this out from a top down perspective. A while back I tried to reverse the order of the Fasties and Middies to allow the quicker Middies to ride with the Fasties without the fear of being dropped into no mans land. If the Middies leave behind then this isn't a problem as there is a bunch behind they can ride with once they get dropped. This should slow the Middies bunch back down allowing those riders in the C28's to ride in the Middies where they should be. This was met with opposition last time by the Middies (one rider in particular) who saw no reason why they should leave any later and they were going to do their own thing anyway.

We no longer need to stager the bunches anymore as there aren't enough seats at the cafe anyway which was the original reason for leaving 10 minutes apart.

User avatar
Karzie
Posts: 709
Joined: 03 Nov 2008, 17:14

Postby Karzie » 04 Aug 2010, 09:38

I've been asking some of the middies why they're riding with us (C28s), and there are a number of reasons:
1. It's been bloody cold and they don't want to stand around waiting for another 10 - 15 mins.
2. They haven't ridden for some weeks and want to get back into it in a more civilized manner.
3. They have a race coming up and just want to 'spin'.
4. They've never ridden with middies. A number of strong new riders have started riding with C28s.
5. Some C28s have improved a lot and could be actually classified as middies.

The interesting thing is that I haven't heard one complaint about the increased pace from the regular c28s because I think it's all working.
The C25s and C28s leave at the same time and don't really differentiate until Brighton Le Sands.
70% of the bunch are managing the increased pace and close to 100% can manage the pace until they fall off around Kingsway and form their own slower (C28) bunch or get caught by the c25s.
Then the mad mile refines the distinctions further.

orphic
Posts: 1109
Joined: 18 Apr 2009, 20:03
Location: Stanmore

Postby orphic » 04 Aug 2010, 10:49

When I rode with the C28's a couple of months ago I sat on the front for a bit and apparently it was a bit fast, but I was asking people around me if the pace was ok and they said yes. Meanwhile some folk up the back were struggling but were too shy to say so, or weren't really sure if they were just feeling a bit crap that day. I suppose what I am trying to say is that it might seem like 70% of the bunch are managing but really they might not want to speak up. Then what happens is they are completely toast by the time they get to Kingsway and blow up, and never get a chance to go at a good pace on the part of the ride that probably counts the most training wise.

If I was in that position of getting dropped every week because somebody gunned it from the start despite the advertised speeds, I might not feel very positive about coming back to ride with the club. We should be looking after each other, especially the weaker riders who are often pushing themselves much harder than you might think!

I am all for the reverse in order of middies and fasties btw. I think everyone was keen except for whoever that one rider is, who can ride on their own if they really want to.

User avatar
Karzie
Posts: 709
Joined: 03 Nov 2008, 17:14

Postby Karzie » 04 Aug 2010, 11:24

The other side of it is that it's not the same every week. Some weeks it's just a bit over 28, others it's like 32. One of the issues has been numbers. Mid-winter we were getting maybe a dozen all up - c25, c28, middies (especially on a big race weekend) and it was better we all rode together. Numbers were really up last week.
The harder pace has been really good winter training, so I haven't been complaining and there's always a slower group behind if you blow up which I did once following the 'flu. I'm not saying it's better or anything like that, but those of us who have been coming every weekend all thru winter have just been trying to adapt to everyone else's needs. We have been discussing it amongst ourselves, as regular c28s. Some weeks we hardly, if ever, saw a club coach in any group.
Interesting that Stewie is managing c28 pace now. Well done.

User avatar
Trouty
Posts: 1214
Joined: 09 May 2007, 13:23

Postby Trouty » 04 Aug 2010, 11:48

karzie is correct. A lot of the people at the moment in C28s are people that could or have been with the middies but feel they are unfit at the moment due to injury or lack of riding. Also people in this group don't want to ride with the Middies who seem to average 32 - 33kph (I'm one of the culprits). Having ridden with the C28s in the last 2 weeks it does seem to sort it self out with the faster people leading and the slower people dropping off around Captain cook bridge. There hasn't been any complaints so far, but maybe people are being shy about it. I also think people at the front don't always know what pace to go on certain parts of the ride to get them to a certain average overall. I just seem to ride at the pace every one else can sustain.

Anyway - I am all for reversing the order, but I think an announcement needs to be made on the day at the C28's, to suggest to the faster people that will ride faster than this to either form there own group or go with the middies. I would anounce this Sunday but I won't be there.

The slowies C25 group is also at fault here with Stuart's average speed being 27km/hr.

I think at the end of the day it really depends who shows up, so it could be as easy as a ride leader discussing with the group they have on the day what pace they want or think they can go on the day - and sorting it from there.
Last edited by Trouty on 04 Aug 2010, 12:28, edited 1 time in total.

Richard
Posts: 266
Joined: 06 Sep 2009, 21:04
Location: Ashfield

Postby Richard » 04 Aug 2010, 12:19

I am to blame as much as anyone. I have been away and just getting back in condition to ride the middies.

I found that when the middies and fast group left together then if you were spat out the back it could be a long ride on your own if you were behind on the road of both the cruisers groups.

I am all for a good sized true middies group. Leaving at the same time as the other groups so that the Cruisers can sweep up any stragglers from the faster groups (i.e. from either mechanical or fitness)

User avatar
Stuart
Posts: 2568
Joined: 11 Mar 2008, 10:43
Location: Dulwich Hill

Postby Stuart » 04 Aug 2010, 12:28

Trouty wrote: The slowies C25 group is also at fault here with Stuart's average speed being 27km/hr.

The reason for this, as I stated, is that there were only 4 of us (5 after Mark caught us) and we averaged 25kph going out (assuming my new Garmin is actually correct). This is the first time we've gone that fast when I've been there (no new riders either) and without Mark being on the front all the way back from Waterfall to Sutherland the 27.5 avg wouldn't have happened.

I think the issue is that new riders arrive and assume a certain pace which is clearly not being delivered. C25 riders can't step up without being dropped regularly by the C28's. Obviously each bunch is not going to ride at exactly the same speed each week depending on who turns up but the couple of times there were very few C25s and we rode out with the the C28s the pace was fast & furious from the get go. If riders don't want to hang around for 10 extra minutes, then arrive 10 minutes later for the real start time.

I still think that even when fast riders say they are "just going for a spin" the competitive edge takes over & the pace is fast anyway.

I won't be there on Sun 8th but Lindsay should be back and Geoff S should be there also to ride the C25s. I don't know that there's a solution really as we can't force people to ride in a certain bunch, but if you can average 31kph then IMHO you should be in the middies - why wouldn't you want to step up? Same as when there are other coaches available for C25 I'll give the C28 a go but if they're actually doing 31 then I've no hope of staying on (unless I get on the front and slow the pace!).

Maybe we should start the middies and fasties at the same time (6:30) like C25 / C28 (6:20) with the fast bunch going first - you get dropped, you end up in the other bunch. The middies / fasties will always pass the C25 / C28 bunches (or they should if they are going at the real pace), especially if we compress the start times a bit and bunches actually leave on time. As Christian pointed out, there's not enough room at the cafe for everybody as it is, so having us there all together might not be as desirable as it has been ( and would ease the strain on the cafe) and we don't all ride back from the servo together either as we used to so ....

User avatar
Stuart
Posts: 2568
Joined: 11 Mar 2008, 10:43
Location: Dulwich Hill

Postby Stuart » 04 Aug 2010, 12:45

Karzie wrote:The interesting thing is that I haven't heard one complaint about the increased pace from the regular c28s because I think it's all working.
The C25s and C28s leave at the same time and don't really differentiate until Brighton Le Sands.
70% of the bunch are managing the increased pace and close to 100% can manage the pace until they fall off around Kingsway and form their own slower (C28) bunch or get caught by the c25s.

This line is telling for mine: "the interesting thing is that I haven't heard one complaint about the increased pace from the regular c28s because I think it's all working".

What this says to me is that the "regular" C28's, those 70% who manage the increased pace, should all be in the middies, as they are comfortable with the new, faster i.e. middies pace.

User avatar
Karzie
Posts: 709
Joined: 03 Nov 2008, 17:14

Postby Karzie » 04 Aug 2010, 13:00

Stuart wrote:
Karzie wrote:The interesting thing is that I haven't heard one complaint about the increased pace from the regular c28s because I think it's all working.
The C25s and C28s leave at the same time and don't really differentiate until Brighton Le Sands.
70% of the bunch are managing the increased pace and close to 100% can manage the pace until they fall off around Kingsway and form their own slower (C28) bunch or get caught by the c25s.

This line is telling for mine: "the interesting thing is that I haven't heard one complaint about the increased pace from the regular c28s because I think it's all working".

What this says to me is that the "regular" C28's, those 70% who manage the increased pace, should all be in the middies, as they are comfortable with the new, faster i.e. middies pace.


Yes, that's because we've just got used to all three groups starting together. The winter riders are a more hardy and uncomplaining bunch by nature I think, and a couple of months of keeping up with the 'ring in' middies has led to a general speed up. Most weeks lately, we don't see another group go by at all. Fasties come in after us at Sutherland and there doesn't seem to have been a middies group for some time...? (i may just be delusional).

I think this is natural, but now numbers have come up a bit it will need to be managed. I like the idea of middies and fasties starting together like the other group, but yes, the ideal separation would be such that the middies would pass the c28s around the beginning of Kingsway or earlier, so that dropped middies would be able to fall back onto the 28s... I'll jump, but I want a parachute!

User avatar
fenn_paddler
Posts: 154
Joined: 28 Mar 2007, 08:30
Location: Petersham

Postby fenn_paddler » 04 Aug 2010, 13:20

christian wrote:We can sort this out from a top down perspective. A while back I tried to reverse the order of the Fasties and Middies to allow the quicker Middies to ride with the Fasties without the fear of being dropped into no mans land. If the Middies leave behind then this isn't a problem as there is a bunch behind they can ride with once they get dropped. This should slow the Middies bunch back down allowing those riders in the C28's to ride in the Middies where they should be. This was met with opposition last time by the Middies (one rider in particular) who saw no reason why they should leave any later and they were going to do their own thing anyway.


Was an attempt to introduce this change done arbitrarily, or via adequate communication & consultation via club channels? The reason I ask, is I recall turning up one sunday & being informed of a suggested change resulting in middies leaving at 6:40. Which meant 20 minutes waiting in the cold of mid-winter. Fine if advised beforehand so turn-up time can be amended & if there has been consultation, but from memory the response would have been pretty short at that time of morning & at late notice.

Discussions on group pace and timing seem to come up every 3 months. Maybe it isn't a solvable problem because people feel different on different days, some days riders may feel 110%, some days overtrained or tired or simple want an easier ride. Putting numerous guidelines or rules around something as dynamic as group of people out for a sunday ride seems destined for failure (or continued discussion!). If it's too regulated, it'll end up being too intimidating (or convoluted) for newcomers to understand.

PeterOS
Posts: 145
Joined: 16 Jul 2008, 13:39

Postby PeterOS » 04 Aug 2010, 13:28

I think what Karzie was saying about starting middies and fasties together is not a bad idea for the colder months, but does it solve the problem of to many middies riding in C28 group? or is it a problem we can live with ?

User avatar
Karzie
Posts: 709
Joined: 03 Nov 2008, 17:14

Postby Karzie » 04 Aug 2010, 13:39

PeterOS wrote:I think what Karzie was saying about starting middies and fasties together is not a bad idea for the colder months, but does it solve the problem of to many middies riding in C28 group? or is it a problem we can live with ?


The only way is to police the speed. If you force faster riders to slow down, they'll comply or ride off. Simple. If there's no club coaches managing the show, then everyone just has to manage as best they can. I think the above solution will work ok, but only if the c25/c28 discipline is enforced. The faster groups are more experienced and used to working together (in theory!) so they should be able to form up without too much oversight.

User avatar
mikesbytes
Posts: 6991
Joined: 13 Nov 2006, 13:48
Location: Tempe
Contact:

Postby mikesbytes » 04 Aug 2010, 15:54

It's beginning to sound like. We all leave at 6.30 and ride at whatever pace we want and the group breaks up accordingly.

christian
Posts: 837
Joined: 30 Oct 2007, 19:21
Location: Earlwood

Postby christian » 04 Aug 2010, 16:41

From memory I did advertise the change in times for the two top groups on the forum, but only in the week coming up. And it wasn't standing around for another 20 minutes, it was another 10 as the middies leave at 6.30. I think both the fasties and the middies leaving at the same time is a good option.

So given this I'm going to propose that the fasties leave at 6.30, we shouldn't start this just. We need some time for everyone to find out about the change.

User avatar
geoff m
Posts: 1072
Joined: 13 Nov 2006, 20:41

Postby geoff m » 04 Aug 2010, 18:50

Wow - what great interest in this thread. Good to see large numbers turning up for the club :D

Matter was discussed at exec meeting last night and the club will try to work in a more formal Cycle Skills coaching roster for C25s and C28s, to lead and regulate rides. This will be done on best endeavours basis, but with further structure than we have now.

Middies leave at 6.30 sharp so there are no changes to times.

In the meantime, we need some of the faster, AND PROPERLY SKILLED guys/gals to come up from C28s. Remember, its not just speed, but speed and technique to be ready for Middies. (Ask a cycle skills coach if you are unsure). THose of you who have ridden with Middies successfully before, should immediately step up.

One aim of the Cycle Skills Coaches will be to ensure as best as possible (but not always possible) that the bunches don't get easily split. A good controlled paced ride is often a fast ride, and a fast ride by individuals, is often ironically slowest. This management of pace is most important on the elevated parts of the ride, and when taking off at lights, ensuring the front riders ease off slowly and STAY IN THE SADDLE.

rhys
Posts: 540
Joined: 17 Jan 2010, 13:00

Postby rhys » 05 Aug 2010, 20:31

Glad this thread was made as it's cleared a few things up for me. Being my first club road ride, I wasn't sure which group to go with so I thought I'd try the 28s, and 20 minutes into the ride I was wondering where the '28' came from.
I must say that it didn't really bother me that we went faster than I thought, however I'm not everyone. I probably would have been bored (but at least not dropped) if we'd sat at or around 28, and I wouldn't have the guts to move to a faster group so I didn't have a problem with the higher pace.

AnthonyI
Posts: 53
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 19:49
Location: Summer Hill

Postby AnthonyI » 06 Aug 2010, 09:02

Having ridden in the C28's since this group was created last summer, and being one of the unofficial ride leaders for this group, when cycle skills coaches are absent (which is most weeks), I thought I'd propose some ride guidelines that I follow that result in a 28km/h average over the whole ride.

These include;
- Treat the first 5-10km's as a warm up as most of us are still half asleep - especially in winter
- Flat sections: Ride tempo by keeping to around 29-30km/h
- Ascents: Drop speed to around 22-23km/h (up Kingsway, Bridge and hills towards Waterfall)
- Take off slowly from lights, so as not to stretch the bunch out
- When having a turn at the front, keep the same tempo, don't accelerate and stretch out the bunch (there is time for having a go on the mad mile)
- Remember to always pass calls down the line and call out any obstacles.

Some of the newer members and those with less bunch ride experience might find it helpful to read up on some of the bunch riding guidelines that you can find on other cycling sites.

Hope this helps :D

User avatar
Stuart
Posts: 2568
Joined: 11 Mar 2008, 10:43
Location: Dulwich Hill

Postby Stuart » 06 Aug 2010, 13:37

AnthonyI wrote:Having ridden in the C28's since this group was created last summer, and being one of the unofficial ride leaders for this group, when cycle skills coaches are absent (which is most weeks), I thought I'd propose some ride guidelines that I follow that result in a 28km/h average over the whole ride.

These include;
- Treat the first 5-10km's as a warm up as most of us are still half asleep - especially in winter
- Flat sections: Ride tempo by keeping to around 29-30km/h
- Ascents: Drop speed to around 22-23km/h (up Kingsway, Bridge and hills towards Waterfall)
- Take off slowly from lights, so as not to stretch the bunch out
- When having a turn at the front, keep the same tempo, don't accelerate and stretch out the bunch (there is time for having a go on the mad mile)
- Remember to always pass calls down the line and call out any obstacles.

Some of the newer members and those with less bunch ride experience might find it helpful to read up on some of the bunch riding guidelines that you can find on other cycling sites.

Hope this helps :D

Great post Anthony and I couldn't agree more with the guidelines for setting a C28 pace - I try to do the same for the 25's, just a little slower is all. Lately it seems that the speed out of the gate from Marrickville has been very high for the C28's though.

Also, for bunch riding guidelines see here and here and here or just do a google search - there's lots of stuff out there.

Richard
Posts: 266
Joined: 06 Sep 2009, 21:04
Location: Ashfield

Postby Richard » 09 Aug 2010, 18:32

There was a healthy sized Middies group on Sunday. Good to see the Middies numbers return. Great ride.

timyone
Posts: 4380
Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 20:29

Postby timyone » 10 Aug 2010, 12:51

hey what time do the middies leave?

User avatar
T-Bone
Posts: 1933
Joined: 21 Nov 2006, 22:50
Location: Up the Hill

Postby T-Bone » 10 Aug 2010, 17:39

6:30am


Return to “Road”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests