Hi Trackies -
First of all, I'm a novice wrt to bike building and secondly with track / track bikes.
I'm considering getting a small track frame for a junior rider (say size 50) and have looking at the usual suspects for 2nd hand ones on ebay / bikeexchange:
I was looking at http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/track-fixed- ... 3f02d16d69
First question is the item itself: Has anyone tried one of these frames and any reviews/comments ?
Second question is legality: How will someone know it's a UCI compliant track bike, do they take measurements of each bike or the like ?
Third question is building it up, other bits cost , difficultly level: I'm thinking I need to add wheelset (say $110) , a bottom bracket + crank, chain, rear cog, headset + handlebars and a saddle. - have I left out anything? ,
would everything looks like it can be done with normal tools the exception of getting the headset in ?
will I end up paying about the same or more then say $519 for http://www.bikeexchange.com.au/bicycles ... /100214724
And or/any other advice appreciated.
Ta
ebay track bike frame
I've seen people use those frames, and the very similar VISP ones, on the street as fixies. The quality control is apparently not great - e.g. one in Melbourne had a skew-iff rear dropout, making it almost impossible to fit the wheel.
You get what you pay for, basically, and those are as cheap as they come. By the time you buy all the necessary parts, it adds up quickly, and I don't think you'd save much.
I think the Fuji track would be a much better buy
- no need to find all the suitable parts
- the parts that it comes with are reasonable quality (Formula hubs, Ritchey headset)
- lots of sizes to choose from
- a very cheap deal.
One other minor thing - a steel frame like the Fuji will be slightly nicer to ride than an oversized/heavy alloy frame with an alloy fork. Especially on the (slightly) bumpy track at Tempe.
You get what you pay for, basically, and those are as cheap as they come. By the time you buy all the necessary parts, it adds up quickly, and I don't think you'd save much.
I think the Fuji track would be a much better buy
- no need to find all the suitable parts
- the parts that it comes with are reasonable quality (Formula hubs, Ritchey headset)
- lots of sizes to choose from
- a very cheap deal.
One other minor thing - a steel frame like the Fuji will be slightly nicer to ride than an oversized/heavy alloy frame with an alloy fork. Especially on the (slightly) bumpy track at Tempe.
I've seen those VISP bikes on the velodrome. I think Bankstown Sports have a few sets for their juniors to ride on. Chris Hoy would tear one to pieces on his first ride, but I novice junior shouldn't have too many issues with one.
Having said that, the dimensions of the frames on the Ebay listing shows pretty relaxed road geometry. It's not really the sort of thing you want for high manoeuvrability and balance on the track.
Having said that, the dimensions of the frames on the Ebay listing shows pretty relaxed road geometry. It's not really the sort of thing you want for high manoeuvrability and balance on the track.
I guess I'll ask a bit more because (obviously) I don't understand UCI track bikes specifications.
How do you 'read' that the geometry shows 'pretty relaxed road' ? - and is that actually a legitimacy issue (as in it's not permissible on a UCI track? ) or it's 'not recommended' issue because it doesn't perform well?
I might get things thrown at me for asking this, but what's the difference between fixies and track bikes? - if they both have no brakes and bullhorn type handle bars how will someone (clueless) be able to differentiate them? If the bottom-bracket height is between 24cm and 30cm above the ground is that all that is needed?
Ta
How do you 'read' that the geometry shows 'pretty relaxed road' ? - and is that actually a legitimacy issue (as in it's not permissible on a UCI track? ) or it's 'not recommended' issue because it doesn't perform well?
I might get things thrown at me for asking this, but what's the difference between fixies and track bikes? - if they both have no brakes and bullhorn type handle bars how will someone (clueless) be able to differentiate them? If the bottom-bracket height is between 24cm and 30cm above the ground is that all that is needed?
Ta
Track geometry is generally "tighter" than road geometry, which just means that the handling is more twitchy. This is not necessary for the velodrome, but it is preferred. You manouvre around other riders in very close proximity when racing on the track, and you want a bike that responds instantly to your instructions. Relaxed geometry is more stable, and generally, more comfortable. The bike responds to your inputs but takes a moment longer to. Relaxed geometry allows you to take your hands off the bars, reach into your back pocket, take a sip of water, etc. and not have to work so hard to keep the bike upright whilst doing these things. The bike responds to you, but takes a moment longer to. These behaviours are not what is needed on the velodrome. You win the race if you can squeeze through a tight gap, or avoid the crash that is happening right in front of you. Remember, on the track you get out of the way by steering, not by braking, so you want a bike with very accurate quick steering.
Typaically, bikes with relaxed geometry have a longer wheelbase, and more fork trail. They also have a shallower (more horizontal) headtube angle. The seattube angle is also potentially shallower, and the chainstays are longer. This typically means that the top tube may be longer too.
Relaxed versus tight geometry is not a UCI issue. I've seen many riders on the velodrome who are riding road frames, which clearly have road geometry, and forward facing dropouts too.
Fixies are fixed gear bikes, where there is no freewheel. If you pedal backwards, you go backwards. All track bikes are fixed gear, since the rules require it, but not all fixed gear bikes are track bikes. I have a Raleigh Twenty, which is a folding shopper bike from the 70s with BMX wheels, which is a fixed gear bike. Pretty much any bike can be set up to run a fixed drivetrain, and therefore can be referred to colloquailly as a fixie. Yes, track bikes have no brakes, but that's not relevant to whether a bike is a fixie or not. Old track bikes are good to convert to fixed gear, since they were made to be set up that way, but the mounting of bullhorn bars on a roadbike is compromise to comfort in my opinion, and the absence of brakes on any bike ridden on the road is just idiotic. Even if you are a master at skidding to stop, you are dead if your chain breaks.
So, any bike with rear facing track ends and with rear spacing of 120mm, which is less than 40 years old will be made to run a fixed gear drivetrain. Whether it is suitable for use as a track bike will come down to geometry. This will depend on the riders body shape, their confidence on a bike, their chosen event(s) and their competitiveness. Bottom bracket height is important, but not always critical. A young rider, or a short rider will be fine, since their cranks are shorter, and the chance of pedal strike is reduced. The use of clipless pedals on the track has also narrowed the q-factor, which means pedal strike is pretty rare, even if you take a road bike frame onto the track.
If the rider is just looking to get out there and ride, I don't think geometry is particularly important. In fact, for a beginner, more relaxed geometry can be better. A twitchy bike underneath a nervous rider can do more to put a rider off riding than help them to have fun. Can be fun to watch though! Positioning can be adjusted to comensate for a poor frame fit too, to a certain extent.
Typaically, bikes with relaxed geometry have a longer wheelbase, and more fork trail. They also have a shallower (more horizontal) headtube angle. The seattube angle is also potentially shallower, and the chainstays are longer. This typically means that the top tube may be longer too.
Relaxed versus tight geometry is not a UCI issue. I've seen many riders on the velodrome who are riding road frames, which clearly have road geometry, and forward facing dropouts too.
Fixies are fixed gear bikes, where there is no freewheel. If you pedal backwards, you go backwards. All track bikes are fixed gear, since the rules require it, but not all fixed gear bikes are track bikes. I have a Raleigh Twenty, which is a folding shopper bike from the 70s with BMX wheels, which is a fixed gear bike. Pretty much any bike can be set up to run a fixed drivetrain, and therefore can be referred to colloquailly as a fixie. Yes, track bikes have no brakes, but that's not relevant to whether a bike is a fixie or not. Old track bikes are good to convert to fixed gear, since they were made to be set up that way, but the mounting of bullhorn bars on a roadbike is compromise to comfort in my opinion, and the absence of brakes on any bike ridden on the road is just idiotic. Even if you are a master at skidding to stop, you are dead if your chain breaks.
So, any bike with rear facing track ends and with rear spacing of 120mm, which is less than 40 years old will be made to run a fixed gear drivetrain. Whether it is suitable for use as a track bike will come down to geometry. This will depend on the riders body shape, their confidence on a bike, their chosen event(s) and their competitiveness. Bottom bracket height is important, but not always critical. A young rider, or a short rider will be fine, since their cranks are shorter, and the chance of pedal strike is reduced. The use of clipless pedals on the track has also narrowed the q-factor, which means pedal strike is pretty rare, even if you take a road bike frame onto the track.
If the rider is just looking to get out there and ride, I don't think geometry is particularly important. In fact, for a beginner, more relaxed geometry can be better. A twitchy bike underneath a nervous rider can do more to put a rider off riding than help them to have fun. Can be fun to watch though! Positioning can be adjusted to comensate for a poor frame fit too, to a certain extent.
Thanks very much for the reply.
I have realised I used the wrong term earlier and meant to say "drop" handlebars not "bullhorns" - duh.
Not that I intend to get one and the sizes are wrong anyway, but purely for understanding purposes:
Bke#1 : http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Fixie-Bike-S ... 45fb38b585 - if the brakes where removed and the handlebars changed to the drop ones (and check the roll out distance , saddle position etc ) would it be UCI permissible on the track even if it will perform like a dog?
I can now see the sweeping distance of the forks on bike#1 are far more forward compared to say bike#2 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FIXIE-BIKE-D ... 2a11502270 where the fork look closer and 'tighter' - and again bike#2 would it be "permissible" on the track by removing the brakes /changing the handlebars ?
Ta!
I have realised I used the wrong term earlier and meant to say "drop" handlebars not "bullhorns" - duh.
Not that I intend to get one and the sizes are wrong anyway, but purely for understanding purposes:
Bke#1 : http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Fixie-Bike-S ... 45fb38b585 - if the brakes where removed and the handlebars changed to the drop ones (and check the roll out distance , saddle position etc ) would it be UCI permissible on the track even if it will perform like a dog?
I can now see the sweeping distance of the forks on bike#1 are far more forward compared to say bike#2 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FIXIE-BIKE-D ... 2a11502270 where the fork look closer and 'tighter' - and again bike#2 would it be "permissible" on the track by removing the brakes /changing the handlebars ?
Ta!
Bike #1. Yes, it would be UCI legal. No, you should not buy this bike, or anything like it. Notice the huge gap between the downtube and the front wheel. Also notice how far out the front wheel is sticking. This bike has massive amounts of fork trail, and will be really slow to steer, even on the road. It's a bike that has been designed to look like the owner has taken an old (1940s) bike and turned it into a fixie. The banking of a velodrome does not suit such massive amounts of fork trail, where the rider would struggle to transition between the flat bottom of the track to the banked part. Also interesting to note that the bike has been referred to as the "Corsa" model, which is an Italian colloqual term for "road race", as opposed to anything to do with the track. Of course nothing on the bike is remotely Italian in origin, so why the Italian terminology is used is beyond me... (I digress 
)
Bike #2. Yes, it would be UCI legal. This bike is somewhat similar to the first one though. Quite a bit of fork trail, as indicated by the big gap between front wheel and downtube. As discussed, this makes handling sluggish, but the kids who ride fixies on the street need to have this clearance so they don't have toe overlap and strike their shoes on the wheel when making sharp turns on the road. On the track, you don't make sharp turns, so toe overlap is not important. Just about every track bike has toe overlap.
I have put the two bikes you indicated next to a proper modern track bike. Geometry differences should be apparent.
Bike 1
Bike 2
Modern track bike
Note that the real track bike has a more upright seat tube and head tube, a shorter wheelbase, much tighter clearances between wheels and frame.
Now, this leads me to the obvious question. Is the junior rider who might be getting this bike already riding at the track? Which bike has he/she been riding on? If he hasn't been riding at the track already, why not let him/her have a go on one of the many ready-to-ride track bikes available down at the track. If there is interest, then get something appropriate at that point, rather than getting a rubbish bike now.
)Bike #2. Yes, it would be UCI legal. This bike is somewhat similar to the first one though. Quite a bit of fork trail, as indicated by the big gap between front wheel and downtube. As discussed, this makes handling sluggish, but the kids who ride fixies on the street need to have this clearance so they don't have toe overlap and strike their shoes on the wheel when making sharp turns on the road. On the track, you don't make sharp turns, so toe overlap is not important. Just about every track bike has toe overlap.
I have put the two bikes you indicated next to a proper modern track bike. Geometry differences should be apparent.
Bike 1
Bike 2
Modern track bike
Note that the real track bike has a more upright seat tube and head tube, a shorter wheelbase, much tighter clearances between wheels and frame.
Now, this leads me to the obvious question. Is the junior rider who might be getting this bike already riding at the track? Which bike has he/she been riding on? If he hasn't been riding at the track already, why not let him/her have a go on one of the many ready-to-ride track bikes available down at the track. If there is interest, then get something appropriate at that point, rather than getting a rubbish bike now.
Thanks very much for taking the time to point out the legalities and performance differences , they have become much clearer when pointed out that way - as well as why they are important.
Yes the junior is riding on one of the loan track bikes at the moment - will track of his motivation and take your advice - many thanks.
Yes the junior is riding on one of the loan track bikes at the moment - will track of his motivation and take your advice - many thanks.
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