1905 San Francisco: Better wide tyres

Bicycle related chatter & discussion

Do you like Waverail?

Yes, let's have a go
3
100%
Can't get it; I'll ask someone to explain it to me
0
No votes
No; too much trouble
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 3

Eugen Schilter
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Postby Eugen Schilter » 29 Nov 2009, 13:09

Watch the boy in here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NINOxRxze9k

Incidentally trams (21st century ones that is) are the reason for my absence from recreational cycling. My Waverail project sites are:
http://www.waverail.com.au
http://www.waverail.blogspot.com

If you like modern trams too (or dislike the metro) give me moral support, of which I need heaps.
schiltec@waverail.ch
9876 4310
0434 0527722


By the way: I was on Marrickville FM88.8 radio with Jack and Cat the other day, but nobody gives a damn.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 29 Nov 2009, 13:27

Interesting system.

Q: How does it handle uneven passenger volume along the line, especially when it goes beyond the passenger capacity of one car? At extremes, it may break down the basic waverail principle.

Eugen Schilter
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Postby Eugen Schilter » 29 Nov 2009, 15:19

Good to talk to you again Weiyun

First the answer:
Absolutely no brakdown.
In the case of Parramatta to Sydney, in the [url]FAQ[/url]'s it says:

"The full capacity of 1,070 passengers can be released at a station and the same amount can be picked up from a station. This is possible because the 15car wave is only filled to 85%*) and all passengers fit nicely into 14cars (crush load 1,170) and even into 13cars (1,090). There is no need to schedule since the driver will, on advise of the contol software, do this as a routine. Picking up an unexpected 1,070 Passengers is different only insofar as they will of course not fit into a single waiting car. Instead the waiting driver reports the unexpected arrival of 1,070 aspiring passengers which will trigger the release of 13 cars from the next wave.
*) this fill, as a maximum, is enforced by the Crowd Control System (CCS)."

Weiyun, your question is very common (and a rich source of abuse for me, I am Twitter's tripple layer of stupidity*). Probably because the animation shows only the very typical, bare bone principle (in linguistic sometimes called the 'prototype', something to link your memory to). But if you read more you see that all but one car can be split off and so on. Another mislead is that people cannot quickly fathom that a wave is never ever more filled than 85%. Well it took me 4 months to work it out; so how am I gonna communicate such intricate facts (and there is about 20 of them) in the usual 5 second attention span? To much for my pretty limited skills.

For further info:
All wave splitting is done 'on the run' (called demand driven dynamic wave splitting), i.e. more passengers want to get off, more cars are split off. So theoretically only a 85% full wave of less than 6 cars can have a (rather remote) 'problem' when all passengers want to alight at once. See FAQ for more detail.
Thanks for asking. Keep challenging. I pay you if you find an item that does not work

*PS
Weiyun. How good you are! :) I had this lady Dr xxx brought up +-the same as you; difference was that she was sure she 'got it' and whoever had the idea must have tomato brain! :roll: But (hope you forgive me) I cannot give you the winner's trophy either. That one goes to one UNSW accademic who looked at 3/4 of the annimation and then was boared by all the questions of the other people. :shock:

www.waverail.com.au

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 29 Nov 2009, 17:06

Thanks for the detailed explanation Eugene. We were just talking about what you've been up to and here you are showing your amazing project.

So then the question is on the other end of the interface. What is the effect of this sophisticated DDDWS on typically "dumb" passengers? Will passengers be willing to dynamically participate in the system and interact, considering there are juniors, seniors, mobility challenged etc?

Beyond the direct users, how can you simplify the message to any potential VC boss/customer to effectively sell the concept, without them getting into a brain jam trying to understand the concept?

Does the system satisfy the KISS Principle criteria? Based on personal experiences, the KISS Principle can be the deal breaker in life.

Eugen Schilter
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Postby Eugen Schilter » 29 Nov 2009, 20:08

Weiyun, these are top questions, and new ones too! :D

1
What is the effect of this sophisticated DDDWS on typically "dumb" passengers? Will passengers be willing to dynamically participate in the system and interact, considering there are juniors, seniors, mobility challenged etc?


The computer system is called DDDSA but it has nothing to do with passengers. Waverail passengers do not what you would normally call interact.

Waverail passengers have to observe one simple rule:
IF YOU WANT TO ALIGHT, BE AT THE BACK.
Nearly as simple/stupid as: "Step beyond the open door if you want to go to the level at which the lift is right now.

The collary to this 'If you do not want to alight, go to the front' is not mandatory. A person who does not care, or a person who forgot, or a frail person (frail and elderly are expected to be advised not to walk in Waverail!) will just have a stop at the station (without getting off the car) and then automatically continues with the next wave.


2
Beyond the direct users, how can you simplify the message to any potential VC boss/customer to effectively sell the concept, without them getting into a brain jam trying to understand the concept?


I can't; who can? Need urgent help this one.

3
Does the system satisfy the KISS Principle criteria? Based on personal experiences, the KISS Principle can be the deal breaker in life.


Overall I think Waverail is simple (KISS) for passengers.
a) there is virtually no 'taking the wrong train', no stress (for instance for tourists and me in at Central) to choose the right platform (any Waverail station has only one platform, see Video Networks). All that can go wrong is that you go south instead of north. (Remember there is never more than one line on a Waverail track, and only one line in Central, see Video on Networks)
b) Yes, walking in train is less simple than in a conventional train; but with single line Waverail you can stay seated too, it just takes you a bit longer. I see the walking issue as an expression of 'I am in control where I am going, not the driver', and thus a positive, a new lifestyle. With a network it is a bit more complicated but by then people will know all the ins and outs.
c) How will the behavioural dynamics be? Who knows? From observing I expect an Aussi Waverail to have lots of passengers in the front, some at the back and a distinct empty section in between.

Like anything new it is intriguing, I admit.

Do I clear the bar? Blast me if not - put it higher if yes

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 29 Nov 2009, 21:40

Ummm... It indeed is intriguing. Will have to brew a bit on the passenger interface end.

Taking the elderly person example of not moving to the rear. What if all passengers took the same idea and decided to just seat/stand at the same spot until their desired stop?

Two other items,

1) How can the 1 driver/carriage cost be justified and returned?

2) What's the impact of a breakdown of 1 carriage on the full line?

3) Where can bikes be carried? ;)

This is one huge project you are shouldering!

Eugen Schilter
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Joined: 13 Nov 2006, 20:05
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Postby Eugen Schilter » 30 Nov 2009, 09:21

0)
What if all passengers took the same idea and decided to just seat/stand at the same spot until their desired stop?

Should not really be an issue, but at peak time it could become something of a problem, a la 'a bank with all clients claiming their money'. UNSW is starting Monte Carlo type simuations on Waverail soon and, time permit, such case may be included too.

In the case of City to Parrmatta (private car ownership) drivers would earn more $s from the sticky passengers/customers.

However this whole scenario seems rather hypothetical.

1) How can the 1 driver/carriage cost be justified and returned?

Justification is in the overall economic performance. Waverail's high personnel costs are overcome by extraordinary savings in energy, capital and maintenance, giving it, especially in high volume application, a remarkable profitability. At low passenger numbers Waverail is worse than normal rail. There is a crossover point at around 2,000 passengers/h and after that Waverail becomes profitable while normal rail stays in the red. See the graphs in the Waverail Webpage


2) What's the impact of a breakdown of 1 carriage on the full line?

A minor brakedown is resolved with a pushout by other cars and passenger will hardly notice. A major breakdown brings the system down until the carriage is craned off. Contrary to normal 'Light Rail' however, a Waverail car can be lifted by a road crane.



Where can bikes be carried?

Sadly Waverail could spell bad news in this respect. Peak hour bike transport seems unsuitable in Waverail.


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