What to do with a crap bike

[Huw]

Yesterday the cleaner at work gave me the bike his son bought, rode a couple of times, now refuses to ride. It's a Huffy "Mano" - a K-Mart special, double "suspension" mountain bike thingy. I mean, if they built simple single-speeds without shithouse suspension and gearing systems, the world would be a much happier and more functional place, right?

I detest it. I really can't see a use for it, not even the parts because they're so crappy and unreliable. So I gave it away to another guy at work who said he'd give it to his uncle for their beachhouse. Even there, I'm sure it'll be the catalayst of annoyance and antipathy, until finally it rusts and costs someone more in dumping fees than it cost at the K-Mart checkout. But at least it's not in MY office anymore.

SWEEEEET

Seriously, I'm sure I've got to be wrong - there has to be something that can be done with all these free, horrible, heavy, crap bikes. But what is it? Does anyone have any ideas?

[Huw]

A full-size bike that will take you anywhere? So how do they explain the "Not for offroad use" sticker on the frame??

[mikesbytes]

It's fine for a kid. You could give it to Karen who can give it to some kid who can't afford one.

[Huw]

It's fine for a kid.

Is it really? I just think those gear-shifting systems that don't work and are forever clacking away and mis-shifting would just turn a kid off cycling at all, or worse, be a hazard. Perhaps a cheap BMX, that at least had a reliable drive-train, but one of these mountain bike fashion monstrosities?

My workmate who I gave the bike to has called me a bike snob several times. Perhaps he's right. But what about this: He is the one who I arranged to go riding with, and didn't realise until I met him that all five chainring bolts had fallen out of his crankarm, which was why he couldn't ride his bike. . .

[weiyun]

You guys have got it all wrong, or we are all just bike snobs.

Look at this girl I read about on a cycle touring blog. She is an ethnic Korean Japanese who spoke only a tiny bit of Chinese. She is riding from Shanghai to Thailand via Tibet on a supermarket MTB... Solo. BTW, she did not carry any tools, nor tubes. She has one bottle of water.





So admire the bike!


So I think you should get it back from your mate and take it for touring in Tasmania!

[mikesbytes]

Huw, I wouldn't ride it to Waterfall, but down to the local park is fine.

Nice pics Weiyun. Don't they drive on the left in China?

[Huw]

I think you could get away with touring like that in that part of the world. Crap bike, no tools, no tubes, one bottle of water - but there is a bike repair guy on every corner, and every householder has a drinks stall set up on the road.

But it sounds to me like she's travelling with a loud entourage (she's telling them to be quiet in the first photo) who take her photo, fix her very frequent mechanical issues, and give her lifts to the next lunch stop each day. Also, her bike appears to be a bit more sophisticated than the Huffy Mano - hers has quick release wheels, the Mano had bolts.

I guess I can refine my opinion now. I believe it would be possible to make a Huffy Mano rideable, even over long distances. But I believe that this would require frequent servicing and parts replacement, and that this, combined with the weight of the bike and inefficient, bobbing suspension, would make it an altogether unpleasant experience. In the majority of cases in Australia, the high maintenance requirements of these bikes means that they quickly fall into disrepair and unrideability at the hands of the average punter.

[T-Bone]

We might be bike snobs, but i believe we just don't want making repairs to take over from riding.

I had a K-mart bike when i was young, but you won't see me on one again, and definitely not to go touring on with no clipless pedals in the middle of asia.

[mikesbytes]

My K-mart bike lasted 3 years. $100 / 3 = bugger all.

[Huw]

My K-mart bike lasted 3 years. $100 / 3 = bugger all.

Did you ever ride it?

[weiyun]

No, they drive on the Rt side of the road in China, while HK does the British way.

That girl is traveling alone and trust me, there are no bike repairers at every street corner in that part of China. Spare parts are even less obtainable unless it's for a traditional heavy commute bike. The girl does not have a blog but her story was told by another tourer doing the BJ to Paris route. They just happened to bump into each other en-route. She is very brave or her lightweight has something to do with her lack of mechanicals. In any case, her kind of touring isn't that rare from what I've read around the place. Many third world tourers ride what we would consider to be "crap bikes", and enjoyed their trips.

Let's face it, we are all just spoilt with our material world. Isn't it also a bit like how the generic "sandshoes" of year ago that did every sport under the sun while now we need different shoes for each.

[weiyun]

I had a K-mart bike when i was young, but you won't see me on one again, and definitely not to go touring on with no clipless pedals in the middle of asia.

Or you won't ever be called a weight weenies again.

[Huw]

That girl is traveling alone and trust me, there are no bike repairers at every street corner in that part of China. Spare parts are even less obtainable unless it's for a traditional heavy commute bike.

Well then, she sounds like a trouble-maker.

I must admit that I don't have any experience with riding a Huffy Mano. Nor do I wish to. For me, the essential crapness of KMart bikes lies in the way these bikes include a huge array of extras that I can only see are bound to break down. As well as the way they are marketed as mountain bikes, but marked with stickers that tell you not to ride offroad.

To put my definition of crapness into context, I would consider a heavy commuter bike, like the ones I saw in Cambodia, to be rather less crap than a Huffy Mano. Commuter bikes way more reliable and therefore pleasurable.

Weiyun, what would you do with a free Huffy Mano?

[Huw]

I must admit that I don't have any experience with riding a Huffy Mano. Nor do I wish to.

Sorry, I'm not telling the truth. I would like to ride a Huffy Mano, to see what it was like. And I kinda wish I did now so I had more experience with it. The trouble was, spokes were loose in the wheels, the brakes didn't work, and there was no air in the tyres, so it was unrideable during the time I had it in my office.

[othy]

Huw, I wouldn't ride it to Waterfall

That sounds like a challenge!

On a related note, what do people think are the best 'cheap' bike you can buy? If you were going to spend the same money as that Huffy on a new bike, and that was your absolute budget, what would you get?

[karen]

Hi Huw, you bike snob! - I'm Kidding.

Despite the Kmart type bikes being at the bottom end of the quality chain, they are actually very useful for people who wouldnt otherwise be able to afford a bike. Ie; Newly arrived refugees and low income people with no transport. They are also a stepping stone to a better quality bike once hooked on cycling.

Today I had a lady drop off two of these type of mountain bikes. They had bought them when they started out cycling, decided they liked it and moved onto decent road bikes. They now cycle each week over at Homebush Bay.

These bikes will go via a work program where they will be serviced and then sent to a community group that conducts a cycle info and safety day for newly arrived families. They get given a basic tool kit, pump, spare tubes, info on cycleways and bug groups etc and regular follow up to ensure they are ok and to check if any repairs need doing on the bike. -Of which they get shown how to do it.

If the bikes come in and they are too far gone, they get stripped for any useable parts and the frames get made into wheelchairs and go to countries such as Timor where there are numerous amputee victims.

I have ridden a Kmart bike and I have also ridden a better quality bike. Like most people, I would never go back to a budget bike but it did serve a purpose when I was starting out and was reluctant to spend over $1000 on something I may not use.

There is a guy from Canberra who did a study on how much it cost to own a Kmart type bike and whether it was worth it. -I dont have the link offhand, hopefully Mike recalls it as it was mentioned on another forum.

At christmas I gave a 70 year old man one as he had not long had a double knee replacement and was riding a rust bucket. He now rides it daily and thinks its the greatest.

So yes, they do serve a purpose.

Karen.

[weiyun]

Weiyun, what would you do with a free Huffy Mano?

You are asking the wrong guy as I admit I am also a bike snob. My old GT old style MTB has been hanging on the garage wall for the past 10 years.

You do realize I was just stirring earlier, right? Seriously though, I think I would have done the same as what you've done. The only problem with "nice bikes" is that one can't afford to leave it around. I need to get a "somewhat crap bike" that I am willing to chain to a sign post in the city. It's been frustrating when one lives so close and within easy cycling distance to the city, but have to drive in for meetings all the time.

[fixedgear]

The young Korean/Japanese girls bike does not look all that 'crappy'. Componentry appears to be lower level Shimano MTB, also noticed a Q/R front hub rather than th more usual nutted 'el crappo'.

From the photo's it looks as if she can climb ok on the thing as well.

[mikesbytes]

That sounds like a challenge!

On a related note, what do people think are the best 'cheap' bike you can buy? If you were going to spend the same money as that Huffy on a new bike, and that was your absolute budget, what would you get?

The beast gave Huw a run for his money when I took it out to Waterfall. That bike cost $150 and I was probably ripped off.

[weiyun]

The young Korean/Japanese girls bike does not look all that 'crappy'. Componentry appears to be lower level Shimano MTB, also noticed a Q/R front hub rather than th more usual nutted 'el crappo'.

From the photo's it looks as if she can climb ok on the thing as well.

All without clipless and soft soled "sandshoes". I feel ashamed with my clipless and whinge on climbs.

[fixedgear]

Probably has a sufficiently low enough gear to climb seated and spinning, less of a need for 'proper' cycling shoes and retention systems in those circumstances.

[mikesbytes]

Did you ever ride it?

On my 3rd attempt I made it all the way along Cooks river to Tempe and back.

[mikesbytes]

We might be bike snobs, but i believe we just don't want making repairs to take over from riding.

I had a K-mart bike when i was young, but you won't see me on one again, and definitely not to go touring on with no clipless pedals in the middle of asia.

When are they bringing out a CF K-mart bike?

[mikesbytes]

Hi Huw, you bike snob! - I'm Kidding.

Despite the Kmart type bikes being at the bottom end of the quality chain, they are actually very useful for people who wouldnt otherwise be able to afford a bike. Ie; Newly arrived refugees and low income people with no transport. They are also a stepping stone to a better quality bike once hooked on cycling.

Today I had a lady drop off two of these type of mountain bikes. They had bought them when they started out cycling, decided they liked it and moved onto decent road bikes. They now cycle each week over at Homebush Bay.

These bikes will go via a work program where they will be serviced and then sent to a community group that conducts a cycle info and safety day for newly arrived families. They get given a basic tool kit, pump, spare tubes, info on cycleways and bug groups etc and regular follow up to ensure they are ok and to check if any repairs need doing on the bike. -Of which they get shown how to do it.

If the bikes come in and they are too far gone, they get stripped for any useable parts and the frames get made into wheelchairs and go to countries such as Timor where there are numerous amputee victims.

I have ridden a Kmart bike and I have also ridden a better quality bike. Like most people, I would never go back to a budget bike but it did serve a purpose when I was starting out and was reluctant to spend over $1000 on something I may not use.

There is a guy from Canberra who did a study on how much it cost to own a Kmart type bike and whether it was worth it. -I dont have the link offhand, hopefully Mike recalls it as it was mentioned on another forum.

At christmas I gave a 70 year old man one as he had not long had a double knee replacement and was riding a rust bucket. He now rides it daily and thinks its the greatest.

So yes, they do serve a purpose.

Karen.

OK Huw, hand it over to Karen so it can go to someone who needs it more than you.

[Huw]

Hi Huw, you bike snob!

Your words would meet no opposition from any of my family, in-laws or workmates

What I had in mind was to bring the bike over to the Nunnery for parts or a cleanup or whatever. On the whole I think that would've been a better, more constructive fate than letting it go to a beach house where it'll probably gather rust. OK, maybe that's a bit pessimistic

Today I had a lady drop off two of these type of mountain bikes. They had bought them when they started out cycling, decided they liked it and moved onto decent road bikes. They now cycle each week over at Homebush Bay.

My big worry is that these Huffy-type bikes make good feelings when they're given, but they're essentially unrideable in the long term. In my mind, this leads unstoppably to the poor owner feeling ultimately ripped of and becoming turned off cycling forever. I'm pleasantly surprised by this story.

There is a guy from Canberra who did a study on how much it cost to own a Kmart type bike and whether it was worth it. -I dont have the link offhand, hopefully Mike recalls it as it was mentioned on another forum.

Very interesting. Let me know if you or Mike find it, I'd like to see!

One more thing - if one would like to offer their services to an organisation such as the Nunnery, what are the requirements? When does the Nunnery do its thing?

[Huw]

On a related note, what do people think are the best 'cheap' bike you can buy? If you were going to spend the same money as that Huffy on a new bike, and that was your absolute budget, what would you get?

Good question. I'm reminded of an article in an American cycling magazine - Bicycling I think. About the Kona Bike Town project in Botswana.

In short, Kona are manufacturing a bomb-proof, ultra-reliable, super-practical pushbike for cheap, and distributing them in Botswana, and other countries. Here it is:


I guess a bike with these features could be made in one of a number of configurations; step-through, road-style, offroad-style. A pleasure to ride due to the absolute simplicity and functionality. (?)

[Huw]

You do realize I was just stirring earlier, right?

Of course!:D Note that I also have a bad habit of not using smilies enough!:D

I need to get a "somewhat crap bike" that I am willing to chain to a sign post in the city. It's been frustrating when one lives so close and within easy cycling distance to the city, but have to drive in for meetings all the time.

My pub bike (the one I'm prepared to lock up anywhere) started like as a $1000 MTB (parents bought it for me when I lived in Dubbo). One of the best things I did for that bike was swap out the poor-quality suspension forks for an honest, rigid steel pair. And that on a $1000 bike! I always imagine how terrible the gear must be on a Huffy Mano in comparison.

[T-Bone]

I don't know if i have a crappy enough bike to leave just anywhere, though my fixie would come closest. All my other bikes seem to be continually moving further and further away from that ability. Even if i found a bike for that purpose, i'm sure i'd always be tempted to make it look that little bit nicer.

Maybe i'll take that $100 challenge and build myself a beast, though it may end up too nice if i add some elbow grease to it.

[karen]

Hi Huw,

Here's the link to the guy I was talking about. http://www.smallsolar.org/BTH/budgetbike/index.htm

My big worry is that these Huffy-type bikes make good feelings when they're given, but they're essentially unrideable in the long term. In my mind, this leads unstoppably to the poor owner feeling ultimately ripped of and becoming turned off cycling forever. I'm pleasantly surprised by this story.

You can never guarantee everyone will be happy with a kmart bike. Some kmart bikes can go for years, others die in a few months. The people who recieve these bikes are basic commuters who ride short distances with their kids or to the local shop. They are on low incomes and would never set foot in a bike store. To them, a Kmart bike is better than no bike at all and if it gets a few of them hooked, far better than none at all.

The biggest problem with Kmart type bikes is they are sold in boxes. Many people assemble them incorrectly, get annoyed and throw it away. Even if the bike itself is rubbish, the tyres, tubes, bell, seat and grips are often near new and very handy when fixing another bike.

One more thing - if one would like to offer their services to an organisation such as the Nunnery, what are the requirements? When does the Nunnery do its thing?

The Nunnery is open Monday afternoons. The requirements are only to turn up. You can fix a bike for yourself, help someone else with their bike or simply hang around and chat to other bike enthusiasts. There is always something to do. Their site is www.bikeclub.wordpress.com

[jimmy]

First up, I will admit to being a bike snob. I have no issues with that.

As far as the Retail Store bikes go, I think that you can get something that will be ridable, but you need to be careful in what you buy.

If you buy a full suspension bike (I won't call it an MTB) for $150 (or even less), then you are asking for trouble.

But if you spend that same sort of money on something which is fully rigid, then you should be getting something better. All of that suspension adds cost, so if you get a bike with it, then they must have cut corners elsewhere. Further, go and ask a bike shop how much it will cost for them to put the bike together, it is often about the same as the price of the bike. From speaking to Bike Mechanics, these bikes often use proprietary parts, which means that when something does break, you can't replace it.

Although some people may use them as a stepping stone to get into cycling, I sometimes fear that they do more harm than good as they are often heavy and can be unreliable. No doubt if they are put together properly, then you may get a decent life out of them. Typically, whenever someone asks me for bike advice, the first thing I tell them is to go to a bike shop, yes you will spend more, but you will get a bike that the shop will stand behind.

Also, someone sent this to me a few years ago, this is the other side of the Huffy Bike, how are they made so cheaply?

http://www.nlcnet.org/campaigns/archive ... sdoc.shtml

And finally, a story, I was talking to a mechanic about Huffy's, and he told me that when he was at school, someone there got a dual suspension, he was jumping it down a flight of stairs. This came to a halt, when after a landing, he didn't just buckle a wheel, or snap a pedal or something. No, he snapped the frame! I think that this supports the "Do Not Ride Off Road" sticker.

James

[timyone]

man id love to muck around on a crap m,ountain bike! i gave mine away though it was taking too much roomm, i wish i had a crap one now to ride with friends

[weiyun]

James, I wouldn't take that article too seriously from a purchase decision point of view. It was clearly a part of a campaign against the loss of manufacturing jobs there in the US. Those bikes are cheap because of very low cost of man-power in a country with 1/30th of of the per capita income of the US in 2005 <http://www.finfacts.ie/biz10/globalworl ... capita.htm> at US$1740. As for the components, well, they obviously are cheaper material subjected to intense pricing competition from another 10 similar factories down the road. The only decision that's relevant is whether one believes in globalization of the economies or not.

From the Chinese worker's perspective, those what appeared to be harsh factory jobs (by Western standards) are seen as opportunities by them. Most if not all the workers are rural peasants from distant provinces where work on the land is scarce, longer hour, harder and lower to no financial return eg. Family farms with redundant manpower. As much as there are poor worker treatments in some of the thousands and thousands of factories dotted around the coastal cities over the last decade and more, the overall working condition and pay have steadily improved. The recent news on the huge number of stranded passengers by weather there in China were primarily made up of these migratory workers as they return home for the Lunar New Year. As a matter of fact, year by year, there's now a worker shortage in southern China as these provincial workers brought money home and improved conditions at home and are less inclined to travel for jobs. While the workers traveling to these major manufacturing bases are more selective of their employment, further driving up wages and condition... Market supply-demand economy.

One well known phenomenon is a that a huge percentage of these workers are girls who come out to work for a few years and save up for their dowry. Then they'd go back and get married and not leave their home again. Without these jobs, they would not have a source of income as they stay at home helping on the family plot. With it, they are able to achieve some financial independence and see the outside world, and achieve some control over their future.

[mikesbytes]

Maybe i'll take that $100 challenge and build myself a beast, though it may end up too nice if i add some elbow grease to it.

The trick is to not have good cosmetics. This is the secret of the beast. If you were to examine mine carefully you would notice that there are a number of medium quality components on it, carefully hidden amongst the crap.

[karen]

man id love to muck around on a crap mountain bike! i gave mine away though it was taking too much roomm, i wish i had a crap one now to ride with friends

Tim there are always plenty of mountain bikes over at the nunnery, if not, give me a yell as I always have them here.

Karen.

[jimmy]

Weiyun

I know that what we see as harsh working conditions may not be as such. We are used to own way of life.

This is something that can be argued until the cows come home, you make an interesting case. Does that make it "right" and allows us to justify buying a bike like that? Well, that is for each individual to decide.

I read through the budget biking blog, and I must admit that I was surprised by how well the bike survived. Of course, he did list a cost at one stage, and put down "2 Hours of Labour - $0.00", so if you aren't doing it yourself, you can probably expect about $80 if you took it to a shop. I know myself, that I would ride a bike like that too hard, and I would destroy it pretty quickly. I know that when I bought my commuter, that I went through 3 rims for the back wheel before I finally forked out on something decent. I bought the bike in the later half of 1999, and probably put the decent rim on sometime in 2000. It is still going strong.

I know that a bike mechanic said to me once that it wasn't worthwhile to buy cheap bike parts. I tend to agree with him. But it obviously depends on how hard you are riding those parts. For someone who is only rolling at say 20km/hr, then a cheap part will probably see them through, but most of us ride a lot faster and punish the bikes a lot more.

Now, if someone asked my opinion on one of these Supermarket bikes, I wouldn't recommend them, but I would state that they can do a job as long as you are aware of the limitations. If they are prepared to accept those, with an eye on upgrading in 6-12 months, then it will probably do the trick. But if they already know that they want to get into cycling, and aren't afraid of spending some money, then I would do my best to steer them away from it.

James

[weiyun]

James, I agree. It is an individual decision. But given the economic and ideological frictions b/n US and China, the stories coming out of the US aren't exactly balanced. Further, given the cultural and economic differences, what people in some of the 3rd world countries want can be very different to what we, living comfortably in a developed country, think they want and need. In any case, manufacturing jobs have now gone further to Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos where the labour cost is even cheaper than China. You won't hear as many stinging attacks from the US for these. Anyway, there's always two sides to the story.

I think there can be no absolute answer to those K-Mart bikes. As you and others have said, it depends on the particular application. At the end of the day, $1000 is a lot more expensive than $150. Unless one has an addiction for cycling (probably can be said about most of us), it's not easy to justify that kind of money, let alone multiples of that. Around my complex, quite a number of neighbours have taken up cycling with cheap bikes in the last year. Do they ride hard? No. Would they be happier riding an upmarket bike? I doubt it, certainly not in their hip pocket. They are just happy with what they got and are happy to be able to ride the bike path on weekend afternoons. As they say, ignorance is bliss. Think about it, the cost of their bike if probably less than the cost of one of our helmet or a wrongly bought component. That's value for them.

[mikesbytes]

There's an experienced cyclist who lives in the southern highlands who completely disassembled a kmart bike and put it back together, doing a proper build of it using the supplied parts and appropriate lubrication. He considered that the poor assembly of the bike was more significant than the quality of the components. The owner of the bike had something like 5 years of hassle free service out of it.

[weiyun]

There's an experienced cyclist who lives in the southern highlands who completely disassembled a kmart bike and put it back together, doing a proper build of it using the supplied parts and appropriate lubrication. He considered that the poor assembly of the bike was more significant than the quality of the components. The owner of the bike had something like 5 years of hassle free service out of it.

How much assembling are there with those K-Mart bikes? From what I've seen, they all get sold in their boxes and it's up to the owners to put them together.

[mikesbytes]

How much assembling are there with those K-Mart bikes? From what I've seen, they all get sold in their boxes and it's up to the owners to put them together.

No, he completely pulled it apart and did a complete build.

[weiyun]

Ok. So based on groundless speculation. I suspect the following on new Crap Bikes™,

1) Can run smoothly.
2) Components are less durable.
3) Things will go out of whack quicker.
4) Heavy.

Given that weight is not a limitation of performance on the flat, I'd say a pre-race tuned Crap Bike™ can be a contender for short course criterium racing under 30km. Heffron Park here I come!

[othy]

Given that weight is not a limitation of performance on the flat, I'd say a pre-race tuned Crap Bike™ can be a contender for short course criterium racing under 30km. Heffron Park here I come!

You'd have to ride platforms. Adding clipless + shoes would triple the cost of the bike!

[mikesbytes]

The Kmart bikes pretty much come in one size, a size that is way too small for me. Bet if Huw rode that dual suspension one, first corner he'd catch his knee on the handlebars and kiss the ground.

[mikesbytes]

You'd have to ride platforms. Adding clipless + shoes would triple the cost of the bike!

Many of them use a one piece crank and the thread size of one piece crank pedals is smaller making it difficult if not impossible to find clipless pedals that fit.

Occasionally T7 has a Shoe/Pedal combination for less than $100. Although my shoes cost more than the total value of my beast....

[weiyun]

You'd have to ride platforms. Adding clipless + shoes would triple the cost of the bike!

Who said that clipless and shoes are mandatory for Heffron? Some gaffa tapes would do... Just remember to learn your track stand technique.

The Kmart bikes pretty much come in one size, a size that is way too small for me. Bet if Huw rode that dual suspension one, first corner he'd catch his knee on the handlebars and kiss the ground.

What's the problem? He can stand and power down the straight and corners, just like those BMXers. Added the small frame and stiffness correlation, he is on a sure winner of a frame!

Wouldn't it be funny if one allows one of the A graders to race in D on a Crap Bike™? Do you think he/she will win?

[mikesbytes]

UCI rules dictate that the wheels must be the same size. I doubt that the quality of the manufacture is that good

[mikesbytes]

Huw, with a few mods, you could be riding it to Waterfall

[weiyun]

Huw, with a few mods, you could be riding it to Waterfall

Why stop at Waterfall? Clearly it's a Grafton-Inverell material.

[Huw]

HA!
Actually Mike, I think you hit one of my original nails on its head with this post. The Huffy Mano includes a lot of flashy stuff people don't need, even though they might think they want it. This bike takes this to the extreme - although the seatpost appears to be underutilised. How about a clip-on rear fender??

[T-Bone]

Those Triathletes will ride anything!!! Even weird MTB conversions it seems...

[weiyun]

Problem is, that's a Cannondale. Hard to put it in the Crap Bike™ category.

[mikesbytes]

Funny how it misses the point all-together. $$$ on flash wheels, aero-bars etc and then the body is positioned so high it acts as a parachute