Buying a new bike!

[mcrkennedy]

Hi
Some of you may have seen the post about the crack in my frame. This has led to a need to get a new bike. I have spoke with the finance committee and like the PM the committee realise that we need to spend our way out of this problem.

I have done a bit of research and my max would be about $4,000 but I would prefer not to actually go there. I am thinking more in the $2,000 to $3,000 range.

So Carbon or Alloy.

In the alloy list are:
BMC Streetfire and Roadracer
Cannondale CADD 9 5
Cevelo S1 (formerly the Team Soloist)

In the carbon list are
Cannondale Six Carbon 5 and Carbon 6
Malvern Star Legend
Le Mauco, Lyon and Bol DD'Or.

Price draws me to the BMC Streetfire and the CAAD ( as well as the Bol d"or and Lyon)

The Malvern Stars seem to good to be true, Carbon frame and good quality components. Does anyone know what they are like. I am sure that you get what you pay for, and I worry about the frame.

So any advice or other suggestions would be good. Remember I am a big rider, so strength is an issue for me. I am looking at a bike to last at least 5 years if not longer. I want it to race particularly next year and otherwise to do group rides and training. I am not worried by the wheels on offer which seem to be always the cheapest option ( even the Cervelo has Shimano R500!) as i have my good wheels already.

[weiyun]

Isn't it true that Cannondale has a lifetime warranty on frames? Also, in the US they have a crash replacement policy (good for racers). Not sure if there's something similar here.

[Toff]

I would avoid the Oppy series Malvern Star bikes. I was in the LBS when I saw my first one. In pieces... Requiring a complete rebuild.

Apparently the LBS has seen several in this state already. Seems there is a design fault that causes the bike to get the death wobbles at speed. Rider goes down, trashing the frame, and components.

[jimmy]

I have a Cervelo Team Soloist, and I love it. They also have a Limited Life Time Warranty.

That would be my recommendation.

James

[timyone]

I love the look of alot of the cervelo's!

(does every one write lbs as not to advertise which shop they go to? i thought one of the things about bike forums (motorbike and push) was that we advertised heaps of shops! unless we have a shop that sponsors us, then we only talk about them

[weiyun]

(does every one write lbs as not to advertise which shop they go to? i thought one of the things about bike forums (motorbike and push) was that we advertised heaps of shops! unless we have a shop that sponsors us, then we only talk about them

PBK?

[timyone]

yeah that too! i reckon its better for new people reading not to have to guess what lbs and pbk etc stand for, i had to ask around for the lbs thing.

[lindsay]

http://www.surlybikes.com/pacer.html

This as my pick for your consideration. 5 years is a long time for a carbon frame. If I was building up this bike I'd treat myself to a higher end group set, also can double as a tourer.

Cheers,

Lindsay

[christian]

For that amount of money you could always consider a custom steel frame.

[weiyun]

What's the value of a custom steel frame if one doesn't spend big bucks to for the input of a fitter eg. Steve Hogg?

[Toff]

Heck, you could even show up sporting purple tires and not look out of place.

What's that supposed to mean?

[mikesbytes]

Michael, as you are a Clydesdale, you need to consider the strength/suitability of the frame. I had a background of cracking frames and purchased my current road bike in 04 based on its reputation for not cracking.

[christian]

If you get a custom frame then its build to suit you and your riding style. A good frame builder should be able to work out the frame dimensions. You will also end up with exactly what you want, groupset, wheels, colour, etc. Modern steel frames aren't that heavy, and unless you are a skinny hill climber having a super light bike isn't a massive advantage.

[weiyun]

If you get a custom frame then its build to suit you and your riding style. A good frame builder should be able to work out the frame dimensions. You will also end up with exactly what you want, groupset, wheels, colour, etc.

These issues have always puzzled me.

1) How important is it to have a frame that matches oneself to the 5mm? Giant frames come in S, M and L, and not too many people suffer with their fit.

2) If a good frame builder is good enough to determine a custom frame dimension down to the nearest mm, then that implies that they are as good as experts in the field like Steve Hogg. If they are not good enough to that resolution, then what's wrong with one of the standard sizes (usually in 1cm steps for steel) and match it with a suitable finishing kit? Of course, custom frames may be critical for those with irregular body proportions (2 SDs out), but then their frame would probably have some unusual dynamics compared with a regular square dimensioned frame.

Anyway, I've recently started to question the true value of custom frame for riders with average body proportions. I am starting to think that the true value may lie more in the novelty value than actual fit improvements for most.

[lindsay]

Anyway, I've recently started to question the true value of custom frame for riders with average body proportions. I am starting to think that the true value may lie more in the novelty value than actual fit improvements for most.

I've been moving towards that position as well. In the olden' days, when I started cycling in the 70's & around the people I was riding with there was a real stigma against off the shelf frames & it was thought that a rider needed a hand built exact etc etc frame. However when Jim Bundy built me track bike he used very typical measurements pretty well the same as what you'd buy off the shelf. The main attraction of this bike for me was it's builder rather than it's exact dimentions.

You can always specify a few personal tweeks with a custom frame.

There was plenty of wacky ideas pushed by the builders as well to differentiate themselves, some of which are questionable. Also one more thing to consider is this - Frame builder buys your tube set & makes a wrong cut, only the honest ones will replace that tube, the others will make it fit then either hide it or spin you some line why it's better...

[lindsay]

Oh & one more thing... in the 70's I remember counterfiet frames was a real problem, both off the shelf & custom and tube sets not being what the sticker said it was.

[Toff]

I had a custom bike hand built for me in the 90s. It was stolen around 5 years ago, and I really miss that bike.

Here is what I got that an off the shelf bike would never have given me:

1) Custom frame geometry. I wanted a fast bike for criterium racing, which would zip throught the corners. This meant a square frame, and a slightly steeper seat tube angle than normal. My custom was 52.5cm along both the top tube and seat tube. Who sells a square frame these days? If someone does sell one, do they sell in half cm sizes? Didn't think so...

2) My choice of tubing. I was on a budget, so I went with Columbus SL tubing, although I wanted SLX. However, I did go with an SLX fork crown, because that's what custom built lets you do.

3) Unique lugs. They were a work of art. I've never seen anything like them, but think Nervex, or Colnago Arabesque for the sort of thing. They were hand etched Haden lugs, that swirled and looped everywhere. I never asked for this feature. The framebuilder did it out of love.

4) Unique paint job. A custom build gave me the chance to start from scratch with my own ideas. I chose the Team Motorola colours. When it came back from the painter, it looked just like an Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra, but even though it was custom built, it was still less than half the price of a Merckx.

5) A bike built specifically for my intended use, which was a one-of a kind. If I ever see it again, I will know instantly that it was my bike. I think the thief knows that too, which is why it's never surfaced.

[weiyun]

1) UCI rules will get you.
2) It's about the engine.
3) Vanity.
4) Vanity.
5) UCI rules will get you.

[christian]

Vanity..... whats wrong with having a really nice bike. Something to make other cyclist jealous.

[Toff]

Vanity..... whats wrong with having a really nice bike. Something to make other cyclist jealous.

Some ars*hole will steal it.

And weiyun, do you know something about UCI rules that no-else does? Are they planning to ban steel frames for being too damn long-lasting or too reliable, or too comfortable or something?

[weiyun]

And weiyun, do you know something about UCI rules that no-else does? Are they planning to ban steel frames for being too damn long-lasting or too reliable, or too comfortable or something?

"Funny geometries" are no longer permitted.

[jenx]

[quote="toff"]I had a custom bike hand built for me in the 90s. It was stolen around 5 years ago, and I really miss that bike.

I remember that bike. I was incredibly envious at the time. It had the then new-fangled Ergopower shifters, if memory serves.

[mcrkennedy]

I love this forum. You are all so generous with your advice. I have done some more investigation and I don't think the Cannondales are the way to go. Good frames but poor specs. So I am heading in one of two directions, either the BMC Streetfire or the Cervelo. I can get the Streetfire built up (105) bike less the wheels with last years frame for about a $1,000 less than the new model. Or the Cervelo for twice as much.

Both are alloy which for me I think is the way to go. Both are good frames but I don't think the BMC is in the same class as the Cervelo. Both have the lust factor for me, which deep down is one the things I think we all enjoy about our own particular bikes.

The think I am really thinking about is do I go for the BMC and save some of my credit with the finance committee or blow the lot on the Cervelo.

What ever I choose the next but will be more of a comfort bike for long day rides.

Lindsay thanks for the advice, but I am never going to be a tourer. I had a Europa tourer with a Sun tour group set and end bar shifter which lasted me 10 year until it got stolen. I enjoyed it but I did not love it and while I got it with plans to tour but I never did.

But before I do anything I will check out the Clarence Street Sale starting on Thursday.

Michael

[weiyun]

Both are alloy which for me I think is the way to go. Both are good frames but I don't think the BMC is in the same class as the Cervelo. Both have the lust factor for me, which deep down is one the things I think we all enjoy about our own particular bikes.

I think you just need to take test rides on both bikes to make that decision. The one that'll suit you best will become obvious on the ride.

[mcrkennedy]

Christian

Custom steel has got me interested. Who would you recommend?

Michael

[christian]

I haven't looked into frame builders as I haven't had the money get get one built, well haven't been able to justify it. Chris or Lindsay should be able to recommend some, top of the list will probably be Peter Bundy, you could also look at Baum, Gellie, Hillbrick, Bikepro has Champione frames. There are plenty more, some research will be required. I'd say go with someone local so you can go and talk to the frame builder. Some have pricing on their websites.

[weiyun]

For custom bikes, Llewellyn is the name! You need a second session with your Finance Minister.
http://www.llewellynbikes.com

Ok, spotted Michael again this morning doing his wheelies in Rozelle.

[Toff]

"Funny geometries" are no longer permitted.

I think I see what's happened here. When I said my bike was a "square frame", that's slang which means that the seat tube is exactly the same length as the top tube. Most bikes build the top tube a bit longer to provide a more comfortable ride to the average male, but the handling can suffer. A square frame is still double triangle conventional shape though. There is no actual square anywhere. UCI legal in every respect.

[weiyun]

I think I see what's happened here. When I said my bike was a "square frame", that's slang which means that the seat tube is exactly the same length as the top tube. Most bikes build the top tube a bit longer to provide a more comfortable ride to the average male, but the handling can suffer. A square frame is still double triangle conventional shape though. There is no actual square anywhere. UCI legal in every respect.

Actually I know what a "square frame" is. I was just pushing the limit of those definitions to further my line of argument.

You are right, customization can give you those alterations. But the problem is, how can one be sure that a certain geometry is right? For a mass produced regular bike, one can go in a LBS and take a few rides and get comfortable with the decision. For a unique customized bike frame, it'll be a guess and trial and error for most. But if the custom frame uses regular dimensions, then what's the point other than novelty and vanity? If the original expectation was not matched by the final result, then there's no recourse for the rider.

[lindsay]

My first track bike was made for me & I was never really happy with it, it wasn't straight in the rear triangle & thus would take ages for me to get the chain tension right. The wheel base was longer than I wanted & it just wasn't on the money... My next bike was & remains to this day... spot on. When I got my first bike made I just didn't know enough to communicate what I wanted & took what I got. My second bike I ordered it with Terry Freshwater's help & that got it right.

To be honest I've seen some stinkers being made by the frame builders & I've seen some beautiful bikes.

In my opinion safety of a frame is the paramount thing & in particular how will the frame react under the 2 danger areas. For a road bike high speed decents & a track bike starts & high speed sprints.

I quote -

Everyone wants to climb on a 900 gram frameset, but nobody wants to descend on one. – Ernesto Colnago

When a rider is decending 80kph ++ that's the business for a frame & the danger is the death wobbles. If you've ever seen a rider with the death wobbles it ain't pretty. The average rider might only do that a couple of times a year. So 99% of a bike's life it's plodding along however it has to be built so it survives the 1% of riding.

When somebody says they want their road bike to handle like a track bike... that's great for Heffron Park but the day you take it down Roseville Bridge & hit that pothole perhaps you might suddenly have a change of heart... & face.

BTW my truck bike was made for me & I asked for lots of things that were done very well & some changes to the original design that have worked out. However the first ones made had some problems & mine has a small problem as well. It's the low production numbers that mean it's an evolution process & we own the early builds.

My opinions on the vanity thing - In the olden' days as I seem to be so frequently speaking of lately, there wasn't many off the shelf bikes around (in Brisbane where I started I'm speaking of). In the late 70's when I started there was a only a handfull of brands you could buy & most bike shops would fit you up with their builder very quickly. Today it's much more the opposite. I like knowing the guy who made my bike, like how Jim Bundy made my track bike, it means something to me. Life is about relationships, he built it & I ride it, we have a common bond.

[weiyun]

I agree that different people opt for custom build for different reasons. But for many out there in the forum land, custom frames have been touted as the ultimate when it comes to bike frame choice. As if custom frame would magically eliminate all the problems associated with mass production frames. Maybe it's another one of those legacy from the past that has far less basis in today's environment.

On a technical point Lindsay, how would a builder control the problem of death wobble? I understand that it is a phenomenon that is associated with the natural harmonics of the system (bike + rider) and there isn't one magic bullet that can prevent it from happening. Trueness of the bike/fork obvious can impact it, but I understand that there are more poorly defined physical parameters than just that.

[mcrkennedy]

Hi

The posts have got me thinking about steel and steel custom bikes etc. I had another look at the Pacer that you suggested Lindsay and while Dirt Works don't carry it they could get it in, but that would be some time according to them. It would be similar in cost to an over the phone quote from Peter Bundy. So I have asked for a quote from the Bundys. But now I realise that I am a babe in the woods and am wondering what should I be asking for. I have told him what I have told you so, what else should I tell them?

I am lucky that I can still use my MTB (it is old school and steel and weighs a ton.)

[mikesbytes]

Death wobble is often to do with the rake and trail, but not always. People want quick handling bikes so the steepen up the rake and reduce the trail, which is great until you are doing 80kph.

My personal view is to have a slow handling bike and learn how to quickly change lines on it.

[weiyun]

Death wobble is often to do with the rake and trail, but not always. People want quick handling bikes so the steepen up the rake and reduce the trail, which is great until you are doing 80kph.

Clearly that's no longer a critical explanation. Just look at all those pro bikes descending at 100km/h.

I appreciate that material matters. In the old days with limited options apart from steel tubes, rake and trail may well be the key factor a builder can modify to control this problem. With CF, I suspect the relationship have changed big time.

[Damian]

Hi

The posts have got me thinking about steel and steel custom bikes etc. I had another look at the Pacer that you suggested Lindsay and while Dirt Works don't carry it they could get it in, but that would be some time according to them.

Cheapest way to get a Surly is find the frame at JensonUSA. We did that for my partner's long haul trucker (search Sydneycyclist for Surly). The frame and shipping ended up only costing us $450 USD (and our dollar was in the 90 something cents range). Then we had the bike built up here.

So you'd save yourself a stack by getting the frame from the US and the groupset from probikekit, and like you said you already have good wheels. Whole thing will come in well under 3k I reckon.

[mcrkennedy]

I have decided on what to do. I will go with the BMC frame for now with an upgrade to either Ultegra or Dura Ace. I have started a different thread for that little topic.

What I am looking to do in the future is get a custom steel frame on the next upgrade/disaster and transfer the group set.

Thanks to everyone who contributed. It really did help.