Sunday Bunches - Do you like this possible option?

Road cycling & upcoming rides
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geoff m
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Postby geoff m » 18 Feb 2013, 21:27

Dear all,

A large number of riders, and bunch sizes and sometimes inconsistent speeds provides us with an opportunity to consider an additional bunch.

Currently on Sundays we Have:

6.00am RNP (Strong C28s plus)
6.30am
Fasties (35kms ph plus)
Middies (30 to 33km ph hour)
C28s (28 to 29kms ph hour)
C25s (25 to 26kms ph hour)

I've noticed that Middies is now a fierce pace, usually 33kms per hour - and every week a reasonable number of dropped riders are able to form their own bunch from Loftus on. Those pushing the pace could go up to Fasties, but are reluctant to because of the gap up. This in turn makes it too fast for Middies, and discourages C28 riders up. In turn, those stronger C28 riders have pushed the pace up there making it hard for those transitioning from C25.

We also have regularly sized groups of 20 or more. Anything over 20 can increase challenges around communication, passing through changing lights, merging, etc. So introducing another group may alleviate this pressure.

Please leave a post on what you think about the following proposal (which is not in operation - for discussion only):

6.00am RNP (Strong C28s plus)
6.30am
Fasties (35kms ph plus)
Mid-Fasties (33-34km ph)
Middies (30 to 32km ph hour)
C28s (28 to 29kms ph hour)
C25s (25 to 26kms ph hour)

Please also note that we currently only have a few ride leaders with first aid and cycle skills training available, and endeavour to have someone available for C25s. This is not guaranteed, and often not possible, and weather, etc, training schedules, events and racing impacts on availability, including on the day. If a ride leader is training with another group, they will identify themselves to encourage better communication and riding. Given our numbers and potential bunch starts, everyone must understand that its likely to see ride leaders for C25s only, and not always.

In all cases, ride leader or not, we must all ride responsibly, with regular communication and safety calls, and look out for each other. Riding in groups exposes us to dangerous risks, and contact with others in the bunch causing accidents will occur as will other types of accidents. We must all be prepared for this reality, and accept those risks - otherwise do not ride.

Do PM me or introduce yourself to me if you are happy to help with leading rides, especially for C25 level. Where ride leaders stretch beyond C25s, assisting with C28s is also helpful.

Any thoughts on the proposed bunches?

christian
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Postby christian » 18 Feb 2013, 21:43

I don't think the solution is to just add another bunch. We don't have so many riders that we need five bunches if they are more even in size. What this comes down to is the middle two bunches. The 28's don't want to go up to the middies because they are too fast and the middies don't want to go up because the fasties are too fast, or they probably don't want to get dropped or are on a bit of a power trip by being one of the fastest ridders in the bunch.

Quite often the fast bunch is just three or four people, not the 20 odd of the other bunches. Chances are the so called 'fast middies' would be able to hang on, and if you get dropped you'll survive, you know where you're going. I get dropped all the time these days, doesn't bother me at all.

Also you are more likely to be pulled up on bunch etiquette in the fast bunch because being sloppy is tolerated less, but this is how you become a better cyclist, its not just about being strong.

This will sound just like my usual rant about people not moving up, that's because it is, nothing has changed they are the same problems. If people move up it should all even itself out.

timothy_clifford
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Postby timothy_clifford » 18 Feb 2013, 22:25

To support Christian, if enough fast or strong Middies move up to Fasties, the average speed of the Fasties drops and the easier it is to hold on. Same for Middies and C28s.

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Dougie
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Postby Dougie » 18 Feb 2013, 22:37

Geoff,

I agree with Christian. When I have ride leadered in the recent months the 28's have become too big and too fast. I have almost demanded that certain riders move up to the Middies. In fact I did tell the 28's one morning that since half of them were stronger than me and I rode up with the Middies then they should too.

Strava doesn't lie (although I really wish it would!). You know who you are and importantly I am following you.

My thoughts are.

If your Strava reports that you have averaged 27kph and you are a C25, congratulations you have now graduated to the 28's. expect to be dropped for a few weeks.

If you have averaged 30kph and you are a C28, congratulations you have now graduated to the Middies. Expect to be dropped for a few weeks.

If you have averaged 33kph and you are a Middie, congratulations you have graduated to the Fasties. Expect to be dropped often, I have a teaspoon and some cement in a little container at the cafe if you need it.

Regardless of the bunch you start with, when dropped either pick up the bunch following or form a new one with fellow dropees. It's not rocket surgery.

It would be good if some of the top half riders experimented with this and report back. Strava - Latin for Stalking. I'll be watching :shock:

Strawburger
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Postby Strawburger » 19 Feb 2013, 04:43

To support Christian and Dougie, this is the exact reason why the bunches reversed their order a few years ago, to support those riders who get dropped and to encourage riders to transition to the faster group. Not long ago we had 3 groups, fasties went first and there was hesitation from stronger riders to go up one bunch. We now have a luxury of many riders with more bunches.

If you get dropped after stepping up, learn a few new skills :

1. find out your breaking point,
2. when close to being dropped pick a point where you know others will too, and
3. take control of the situation & form a bunch until the next group catches you.

For those who race or are thinking of racing or doing sportifs, these are no doubt important skills that take time to develop!

Anthony K
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Postby Anthony K » 19 Feb 2013, 06:31

I think Christian has hit the nail on the head. We don't need more bunches, we just need to even out the numbers across the bunches we have.
If you you are in the first 4 or 6 of your bunch into waterfall only to find there is hardly anyone on your wheel then it is time to move up!

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JoTheBuilder
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Postby JoTheBuilder » 19 Feb 2013, 07:21

I agree with those above that additional bunches is not necessarily the right answer but a more consistent spread is.

I am one of those pushing up into the middies and am aware I will get dropped in the short term but hopefully at later and later points on the ride until I can finish the whole thing.

The conversation on Sunday afternoon went something like this:
Jo: "I rode Middies and didn't get dropped until Sutherland AND averaged 41.2km/h on Grand Pde AND I had a backpack on AND John was in the group!"
Christian: "John was in the group?!"

I also noticed on my way back that there were only 8-10 riders or so in the 25's? And the last time I was ride leader for the 25's I also only had 7-8 riders. So I don't think the issue is people pushing up into the 28's. I think the issue is 28's - Middies and Middies - Fasties.

Is there any feedback from the fast middies out there about why they don't ride with the fasties? Too fast? Too intimidating?

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Colin Campbell
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Postby Colin Campbell » 19 Feb 2013, 07:51

Having just ridden my first 2 Waterfall C25's I can't comment on the phase shifts, power failures and surges of those before me, but I would like to suggest another (once a month?) Sunday bunch ride: Kurnell C25. For the new (and older in my case) rider it is a vast and daunting chasm to cross from Saturday Slowies to 80 odd kms out on the highway with uphill stretches! I leapt at the chance offered by Jessica last month to ride with 30 others to Kurnell and it gave me the confidence to attempt Waterfall. The numbers on that ride suggest it has appeal, and the view at Solander Point easily out-points the servo stop!

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 19 Feb 2013, 08:03

Colin Campbell wrote:Having just ridden my first 2 Waterfall C25's I can't comment on the phase shifts, power failures and surges of those before me, but I would like to suggest another (once a month?) Sunday bunch ride: Kurnell C25. For the new (and older in my case) rider it is a vast and daunting chasm to cross from Saturday Slowies to 80 odd kms out on the highway with uphill stretches! I leapt at the chance offered by Jessica last month to ride with 30 others to Kurnell and it gave me the confidence to attempt Waterfall. The numbers on that ride suggest it has appeal, and the view at Solander Point easily out-points the servo stop!

Another good step up point is Sutherland. Before riding all the way to Waterfall, Sutherland servo turnaround is a good option. Kingsway hill will hurt but that's already close to the servo. Wait there for the return bunch.

Strawburger
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Postby Strawburger » 19 Feb 2013, 09:13

JoTheBuilder wrote:
Is there any feedback from the fast middies out there about why they don't ride with the fasties? Too fast? Too intimidating?


There used to be a policy of invite only going back maybe 5 years ago(?). Not sure if that policy still exists. I believe that was in place for safety reasons (assessment of pack riding skills & fitness I think).

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Philip
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Postby Philip » 19 Feb 2013, 09:25

I've been riding with the middies for over a year and have tried to step up to the fasties on a few occasions... I got dropped. No big deal, getting dropped is fine as I like solo riding as much as I like the bunch riding.
Now though, I don't need to step up to the fasties as I regularly get dropped from the middies. This week I got as far as Engadine... it was a good day.

wallman
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Postby wallman » 19 Feb 2013, 09:29

Strawburger wrote:
JoTheBuilder wrote:
Is there any feedback from the fast middies out there about why they don't ride with the fasties? Too fast? Too intimidating?


There used to be a policy of invite only going back maybe 5 years ago(?). Not sure if that policy still exists. I believe that was in place for safety reasons (assessment of pack riding skills & fitness I think).


Ha, really? I'm not sure that's ever been the case. The person who told you that might not have liked the look of you and decided to pull your leg!

shrubb face
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Postby shrubb face » 19 Feb 2013, 09:41

wallman wrote:
Strawburger wrote:
JoTheBuilder wrote:
Is there any feedback from the fast middies out there about why they don't ride with the fasties? Too fast? Too intimidating?


There used to be a policy of invite only going back maybe 5 years ago(?). Not sure if that policy still exists. I believe that was in place for safety reasons (assessment of pack riding skills & fitness I think).


Ha, really? I'm not sure that's ever been the case. The person who told you that might not have liked the look of you and decided to pull your leg!


I'm retracting your invite now for that statement Mat.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 19 Feb 2013, 09:47

Strawburger wrote:There used to be a policy of invite only going back maybe 5 years ago(?). Not sure if that policy still exists. I believe that was in place for safety reasons (assessment of pack riding skills & fitness I think).

Didn't quite work like that. It was more a case that some "fasties" openly stated that they wait for no one and will not wait for any dropped riders. There's also a game of upping the pace and drop riders at locations. The pace can be quite variable from week to week. So as it stands for the upgrading riders, going up to the Fasties was less about socio-training bunch riding than ride for your lives with almost guaranteed of getting dropped week by week, often early. The dynamics is quite different to other bunches. Given how small the Fasties group was, there wasn't a reason to modify. Maybe with a larger club, there can be a more formalised Fasties bunch that largely stays together. Those who want to drop and push hard, maybe they can be called the Fast Extremes! ;)

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Nozzle
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Postby Nozzle » 19 Feb 2013, 10:27

I agree with Christian that there is no real need for an additional bunch. My fitness is coming back now and I'll be riding with the fast bunch (or try to) in coming weeks. No issue with getting dropped as I'm used to it from last years efforts. Rhys and I almost had a regular duo ride from Sutho to Waterfall and tag on the RBCC bunch on the return as we always got dropped on the way out with the fast bunch.

Strawburger
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Postby Strawburger » 19 Feb 2013, 12:12

wallman wrote:
Strawburger wrote:
JoTheBuilder wrote:
Is there any feedback from the fast middies out there about why they don't ride with the fasties? Too fast? Too intimidating?


There used to be a policy of invite only going back maybe 5 years ago(?). Not sure if that policy still exists. I believe that was in place for safety reasons (assessment of pack riding skills & fitness I think).


Ha, really? I'm not sure that's ever been the case. The person who told you that might not have liked the look of you and decided to pull your leg!


Mat you are probably right! I vaguely recall there being something written up on the old website about it but I could have misinterpreted it.

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Stuart
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Postby Stuart » 19 Feb 2013, 12:29

Christian is right. Move up people.

Is anyone even riding the 6:00am RNP ride? Wouldn't this be better as a once month, first Sunday ride?

Great idea for a Sun Kurnell bunch from Colin C BUT we need ride leaders for that so its difficult so how about an alternative Saturday Slowies Kurnell bunch once a month or so using one of the allocated ride leaders? It would also help to reduce numbers on Slowies and some riders can only do one day a weekend. I'd be happy to kick this off on my next allocated 5th weekend (30th March). Thoughts oh wise ones?

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jonboy
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Postby jonboy » 19 Feb 2013, 13:12

A feeling of déjà vu here. I’d echo the comments that more middies need to step up to fasties. I was keen for a go at the fasties but last week there wasn’t a fasties bunch due to a lack of a quorum.

I know that I will be dropped regularly but I do find the middies pace a bit slow at times. It really depends whose on the front. I’m guilty of getting on the front at times and pushing too hard which can upset people. The trick is to have a consistent speed in the bunches to manage fatigue.

Going from the current middies pace to fasties is much less painful for new graduates than going from C28 to middies (current average around 33kph).

On the odd occasions that I have tried fasties I’ve probably been dropped as many times as I have completed rides. On occasions it has felt like they were on a mission to drop me as soon as they could. At times I have bailed out as quickly as Brighton Le-Sands, gasping for air. Maybe that’s part of the ‘initiation process’ but it could impede the flow of new graduates.

I think the outcome we’re all seeking is a training ride that is safe but one which pushes your limits a bit.

J

andrewm
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Postby andrewm » 19 Feb 2013, 13:18

JoTheBuilder wrote:Is there any feedback from the fast middies out there about why they don't ride with the fasties? Too fast? Too intimidating?
I guess I am one of the "fast middies". Although note I was dropped like a stone after the Waterfall turnaround last Sunday. I had burnt all may matches sticking with the bunch till then.

I choose to ride with the Sunday bunch mainly in search of the joy that can come from riding strong and fast in a well co-ordinated bunch. I am more than happy to ride slightly within myself to 'gel' with the bunch.

I think weiyun captured the main reason why I don’t regularly try and hang on with the Fasties

weiyun wrote:So as it stands for the upgrading riders, going up to the Fasties was less about socio-training bunch riding than ride for your lives with almost guaranteed of getting dropped week by week, often early.


I'm not scared of getting dropped. I do the vast majority of my rides solo. But I don’t often feel like 'riding for my life' or smashing myself over 75 km. I want to ride feeling strong in a fast and well co-ordinated bunch.

What I enjoy most atm about cycling is 140km plus rides. So my main training goal (such as it is) is to be able to put out a consistent effort over 6 or more hours. Last year I focused on building a base. Riding within myself so I can recover and have energy for - well - life. My main challenge over the last year was been learning to ride slower. It was hard.

The Sunday bunch for me is not primarily a training ride – it’s that social bunch working together thing. For a primarily training ride I’ll either go solo and ride exactly how hard I plan to – or I’ll race and smash myself.

What I am getting better at, but still find challenging - is winning the battle with my pride and my ego when the going gets too fast in a bunch. My pride eggs me on - to hang on or to take a pull. If for you riding in a bunch is about finding the motivation to really push yourself – this is a good thing. But if you are trying not to go over a certain level of effort – not so good.

The middies are a bit fast atm. I have been riding middies for over 4 years - and the average speeds seem to be regularly 33+ atm. Couple of years ago a speed above 32 was rare and notable - the bunch seemed to comfortably average 30-32.

Why are the middies faster? Riders are stronger – and the chemistry that comes with a bunch of ego’s means everyone is trying to keep up with everyone else.

How to slow the middies down? Dunno. The ‘just move up people’ is fine, but it’s not the solution for me. I would be more than happy to ride a bit slower and be part of a cohesive middies bunch – and occasionally push myself on the back of the fasties.

JoTheBuilder wrote:The conversation on Sunday afternoon went something like this:
Jo: "I rode Middies and didn't get dropped until Sutherland AND averaged 41.2km/h on Grand Pde AND I had a backpack on AND John was in the group!"
Christian: "John was in the group?!"


I have noticed John in the middies a few times lately. There has been a lack of other peeps who I would consider genuine fasties tho

But having riders like John ride ‘down’ in the middies really ups the pace – even if he is riding well within himself.

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paul
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Postby paul » 19 Feb 2013, 13:24

I've done the RNP, once.

I've tried fasties a few times, and it is just too fast for me. Last time I was dropped on Captain Cook bridge and rode the rest of the way solo, without being caught by middies.

It seems to me that the fasties pace is set by a few, very strong riders. As someone past 50, I'll never match those blokes when they choose to drop me. So I will keep trying with the fasties, but still might do middies from time to time.

Paul
Last edited by paul on 19 Feb 2013, 13:29, edited 1 time in total.

andrewm
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Postby andrewm » 19 Feb 2013, 13:26

jonboy wrote: On occasions it has felt like they were on a mission to drop me as soon as they could.


yep

jonboy wrote: I think the outcome we’re all seeking is a training ride that is safe but one which pushes your limits a bit.


Nup. Maybe I am the odd one out - but as I hopefully explained above - Sunday Waterfall is not primarily a training ride for me. I want the choice of either:

* riding within my limits, but still feeling 'fast' in a well co-ordinated bunch (for me atm this would be 30 to 32 average speed - ie middies); or

* pusing my limits a bit (or a lot) in a fast training ride (33/34+ - ie trying to hang on to the fasties)

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JoTheBuilder
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Postby JoTheBuilder » 19 Feb 2013, 14:14

andrewm wrote:
JoTheBuilder wrote:The conversation on Sunday afternoon went something like this:
Jo: "I rode Middies and didn't get dropped until Sutherland AND averaged 41.2km/h on Grand Pde AND I had a backpack on AND John was in the group!"
Christian: "John was in the group?!"


I have noticed John in the middies a few times lately. There has been a lack of other peeps who I would consider genuine fasties tho

But having riders like John ride ‘down’ in the middies really ups the pace – even if he is riding well within himself.


Busted NOOG... :lol:

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NOOG
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Postby NOOG » 19 Feb 2013, 14:51

andrewm wrote:I have noticed John in the middies a few times lately. There has been a lack of other peeps who I would consider genuine fasties though


I only really ride middies if there is no fasties bunch. I am guilty of lifting the pace a little when I do though. I try only to do it on the flats and on the way back to Sutherland. I thought the middies bunch that rode last Sunday was pretty good to be honest.

The number of people actually riding fasties regularly is pretty low. When a good number of us turn up (4-5 max), the nature of the ride can be pretty competitive with impromptu sprints and attacks off the front, pushing the pace on the hills etc. I think, because a lot of the fasties train together most of the time anyway, we do like to 'muck around' a bit and hurt each other when we can. I guess this can be a bit daunting for people joining the group, but I don't think people are being dropped on purpose. There were quite a few middies who finished really strongly on Sunday and who definitely should ride fasties regularly.

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 19 Feb 2013, 15:00

andrewm wrote:I'm not scared of getting dropped. I do the vast majority of my rides solo. But I don’t often feel like 'riding for my life' or smashing myself over 75 km. I want to ride feeling strong in a fast and well co-ordinated bunch.

What I enjoy most atm about cycling is 140km plus rides. So my main training goal (such as it is) is to be able to put out a consistent effort over 6 or more hours...

Important points in resolving this bunch design issue. Foremost is working out just what is the training objectives of these Sunday bunch rides? Social? Dishing out pain to perceived domestiques? Power training? Base endurance training? Race simulation?

As far as I know, even for the pro teams, they ride bunch to gain bunch ride training. When they want individual specific training objectives, they ride solo or in pairs. So coming back to a club ride, if it's a bunch ride, then it should be a bunch ride, with all the drafting and pacing that go with it. If the objective is for personalised interval training of hard effort, then it's not a bunch ride.

Although I have not had the time to ride Sundays for a while now, one objective when I pulled the Middies was to ensure that there is pace for all but be sensitive to the last rider (YMemoryMV). Slow down a tad to allow those who are nearly dropped to catch up (eg. Kingsway, Loftus, Final kick before Waterfall), unless he/she is really out of the league. Dropping 50% of the bunch by Waterfall is a failure of those pacing at the front and should earn themselves an immediate promotion or honorary solo ride. Further, 2nd and 3rd wheels (or coach) should be confident enough to make the call and allow 1st wheel on excess pace to ride away and help preserve the main bunch. The obligation on Sunday bunch ride is to the bunch.

PS. Occasional individual variations are inevitable due to intermittent hormone fluctuations.

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Trouty
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Postby Trouty » 19 Feb 2013, 19:38

We don't need another bunch definitely. A heap of 28s have gone up and now the middies group is quiet large. Sure a few strong riders will break away, but the group does seem to naturally split anyway. If your good enough to ride in this bunch you are good enough to find your way home solo or otherwise. Emphasis and leadership should be more on 25's and 28s as this has the widest variation of riders with new or little experience.

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Postby JJM_1 » 19 Feb 2013, 20:43

I'm probably one of the faster middies. I've tried the fasties a few times & the furthest I made it with the group was near Heathcote.

When I'm feeling strong I'll tend to get up earlier & look for someone to do the RNP 6.00 run with, & each time I've really enjoyed this. When not so strong its a toss up between the middies & the fasties.

Overall, I'm happy to make it a habit to try & go with the fasties, & if others in my situation follow suit then at least I'll be dropped with other riders.

I reckon lets make the fasties a larger group by more people having a go at shifting up

John Mason

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geoff m
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Postby geoff m » 19 Feb 2013, 22:20

Middies is not meant for 33kms per hour. It should be about 31 or 32 max. Furthermore Middies riders can benefit by:
1. Front riders checking from time to time if everyone is on at the one or two toughest points. It is generally a 'drop' ride, but at the Loftus climb it doesn't hurt to look behind and ease up for just 20 secs whilst everyone regroups as we scramble from the crappy bike lane and road, across to the shoulder. That's the one spot where quite a few get dropped, most of whom would hang on easily for the rest of the ride, if we just ease up a bit to get back into sync.
2. Riders at the front waiting for lights to change continue to stand up in the saddle and take off like Mark Cavendish coming off the sprint train. 10 rows of riders back, the impact is devastating, stretching, stop and start, with about 800 metres of closing the gap each time. This is not necessary. Please commence your start in the saddle, and do not half wheel your front partner.
3. I'm a good level of fitness barometer for middies. If I'm hanging in there but doing a good work out, its the perfect speed. If I get dropped, its going too fast. 33kms per hour is just above my threshold.

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geoff m
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Postby geoff m » 19 Feb 2013, 22:22

Oops. I meant 33kms per hour overall average.......

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NOOG
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Postby NOOG » 20 Feb 2013, 08:49

geoff m wrote:If I'm hanging in there... its the perfect speed. If I get dropped, its going too fast.

The 'Golden Rule' of bunch etiquette!

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marc2131
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Postby marc2131 » 20 Feb 2013, 10:05

Barometers? I think that is part of the problem.
As the late Eric Idle says in the 'Life of Brian' - You are all individuals.

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Postby shrubb face » 20 Feb 2013, 10:27

Its been suggested that the only way to solve the problem is to create 11 bunches, one for each increment of 1km/h from 25 to 35km/h. Maxiumum acceleration that is allowed is a exponential scale a=2e^t where t is represented by your increment over 25 and a is your max accelleration in mS^-2.

I also propose that the average heart rate of the bunch is monitered and cannot exceed a predetermined number which is a function of the medium of the bunches age.

This seems like the only solution which should keep everyone satisfied and ensure complete bunch happiness.

timyone
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Postby timyone » 20 Feb 2013, 13:00

I would like a bunch that cruises to waterfall, then smashes it back to Sutherland, then back to cruisy. But yeah, not sure what speed would be cruisy or smashing it

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Postby andrewm » 20 Feb 2013, 13:02

geoff m wrote:If I'm hanging in there but doing a good work out, its the perfect speed. If I get dropped, its going too fast.

Why you as the barometer?

Why not me*, or johnboy, or Anthony, or Eleri, or Paul or......

What if everyone in the bunch thinks this way and considers themselves the baramoter? I think the middies is showing the results of a bit of that kind of thinking.

geoff m wrote:Middies is not meant for 33kms per hour. It should be about 31 or 32 max.

Why?

It reflects the way I think - but I think it would be useful to have an agreed idea of what the middies is for. I'll give my view:

  • The Middies provides bunch training for riders that are too fast for the 28's.
  • The Middies keeps most of the bunch together riding briskly to Waterfall, has a paceline from Waterfall to Sutherland, and cruises home comfortably from Sutherland.
  • If you are having a bad day - expect to get dropped. But if a number of riders who are definatelly too fast for the 28's are struggling - the Middies slow down and stay together.
  • The Middies will be especially carefull to stay together between Loftus and Engadine.
  • Riders at the front will stay in the saddle when taking off from red lights.
  • If you find this too slow - up too the Fasties you go!

Using this as a guide - last Sundays middies was way too fast. Riders like Geoff, Eleri and Anthony are definately too strong for the 28's. Riders like Jo should be able to hang on I think (even with a backpack! - tho that is making life hard for yourself.) There should have been a Fasties of the 6 or so people that stayed together after the waterfall turn around. I would have ridden slower in the middies. The fasties would have been faster. I don't really see the downside (except maybe people would have got dropped from a faster "Fasties" bunch?)

This is just my view. Happy with whatever is decided. Tho I think it is important something is decided.#

a

*As an aside - I would have made a very variable baromoter over the last 2 years. Surely I am not unique in this - but my strength varies week to week because of life, and month to month to reflect the riding I am doing. 26 months ago I was a middie. 18 months ago I would regulary struggle to hang with the 28's. I can now easily average 28 on a relatively easy solo spin to waterfall. The point here is not to blow my own trumpet - but that an individuals performance can vary a lot - both short-term and long-term.
#and yes - deja-vu - I recall similar ansgt about the 28's being to fast not so long ago...

andrewm
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Postby andrewm » 20 Feb 2013, 13:08

shrubb face wrote:Its been suggested that the only way to solve the problem is to create 11 bunches, one for each increment of 1km/h from 25 to 35km/h. Maxiumum acceleration that is allowed is a exponential scale a=2e^t where t is represented by your increment over 25 and a is your max accelleration in mS^-2.

I also propose that the average heart rate of the bunch is monitered and cannot exceed a predetermined number which is a function of the medium of the bunches age.

This seems like the only solution which should keep everyone satisfied and ensure complete bunch happiness.


Speed and heart rate are not good enough metrics. Speed is too influenced by the wind - and heart rate by other factors.

DHBC should mandate all Waterfall riders are to have a power meter and do monthly FTP tests (Saturday slowies turns into Saturday smash fest once a month). The 11 bunches will be precisly graded by FTP - and have narrowly defined ranges of maximum 3 sec, 5 minute and 10 minute power.

That is the only technically sound solution

christian
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Postby christian » 20 Feb 2013, 13:43

andrewm wrote:It reflects the way I think - but I think it would be useful to have an agreed idea of what the middies is for. I'll give my view:

  • The Middies provides bunch training for riders that are too fast for the 28's.
  • The Middies keeps most of the bunch together riding briskly to Waterfall, has a paceline from Waterfall to Sutherland, and cruises home comfortably from Sutherland.
  • If you are having a bad day - expect to get dropped. But if a number of riders who are definatelly too fast for the 28's are struggling - the Middies slow down and stay together.
  • The Middies will be especially carefull to stay together between Loftus and Engadine.
  • Riders at the front will stay in the saddle when taking off from red lights.
  • If you find this too slow - up too the Fasties you go!
.


This sums it up nicely and that is how the C28s and middies were meant to work when I rejigged it all last time. If we stick to this methodology it should just work. Of course there are always going to be some people that mess it all up or complain.

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JoTheBuilder
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Postby JoTheBuilder » 20 Feb 2013, 14:02

andrewm wrote:Using this as a guide - last Sundays middies was way too fast. Riders like Geoff, Eleri and Anthony are definately too strong for the 28's. Riders like Jo should be able to hang on I think (even with a backpack! - tho that is making life hard for yourself.)


The backpack was an anomaly. I'd like that sentence to soon read 'Riders like Geoff, Eleri, Jo and Anthony are definately too strong for the 28's...' :wink:

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 20 Feb 2013, 14:31

andrewm wrote:Why you as the barometer?

<joke>Is that a rhetorical question? Presidente Geoff is the barometer and that's rule of the land.</joke> :mrgreen:

Seriously, I think GeoffM has stayed to be a good barometer for the Middies through the years. At the same time, I am sorry to see that Geoff hasn't been able to make significant gains (blame that on the food/beers/good life shown on his FB pages) At the same time, credit to him for not falling in performance either!

AndrewBurns
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Postby AndrewBurns » 20 Feb 2013, 17:05

I've only done waterfall maybe 4 times now and I've only ever rolled out in the fasties (except once when I accidentally rolled out in middies and got towed to the fasties bunch by a much stronger rider who's name escapes me now). It's damn hard but I usually manage to hold on, once on the way out some people blew off the front and some off the back and I was left in the middle, I waited for the middies at waterfall and hitched a ride back. The only difference I noticed between the middies and fasties was it was a larger group but nowhere near as good riding the pace line. The middies are often nearly as fast as the fasties it seems except they probably don't actively try to break people off the back like the fasties do (it feels good to survive the pace attacks). More people should attempt the fasties, you'll probably hold until a hard surge up one of the hills but so what, middies will clean you up.

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Stuart
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Postby Stuart » 20 Feb 2013, 17:10

NOOG wrote:
geoff m wrote:If I'm hanging in there... its the perfect speed. If I get dropped, its going too fast.

The 'Golden Rule' of bunch etiquette!

** LIKE **

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geoff m
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Postby geoff m » 20 Feb 2013, 18:34

Nice closing summary Christian as per your first post. Sorry everyone to put out a complicated option. Got some good debate but it's now pretty obvious that its time for the stronger and technically sound riders all to go up one. Congratulations.

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Eleri
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Postby Eleri » 20 Feb 2013, 18:56

Good outcome I reckon.

(Mind you I was rather keen on the complicated data collection options. Because then we could have a fine old argument about the algorithms we needed to run the analysis. Because, dammit, we'd be running it every weekend. But it would certainly fix up handicapping advice to race directors. We'd have SO MUCH data.)

timothy_clifford
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Postby timothy_clifford » 20 Feb 2013, 19:24

(Mind you I was rather keen on the complicated data collection options. Because then we could have a fine old argument about the algorithms we needed to run the analysis. Because, dammit, we'd be running it every weekend. But it would certainly fix up handicapping advice to race directors. We'd have SO MUCH data.)


I'd already started on the spreadsheet :cry:

andrewb
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Postby andrewb » 20 Feb 2013, 21:03

Everyone can go as hard as they like, and nobody gets dropped!

Image

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weiyun
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Postby weiyun » 20 Feb 2013, 21:18

Choose your chainring wisely, but it matters not!

Anthony K
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Postby Anthony K » 20 Feb 2013, 22:10

Once again I am agreeing with Christian. Andrew M has summed it up nicely.


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