Hi All
Coming back from Waterfall yesterday near Loftus there is a relatively new set of traffic lights where Farnell Avenue meets the Princes Hwy. It’s been there for a couple of months (maybe a bit longer?)
http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=Farnel ... 2&t=m&z=17
I took off early for the sprint and was travelling reasonably fast when the lights changed. Instinctively (wearing the club jersey) I slowed and moved the left and put my hand up indicating that I was stopping. Meanwhile the rest of the bunch leaders whizzed past, so I put the hammer down and continued on.
In my view it is more dangerous to stop there than to keep going. It’s just about the fastest section of the ride and averages along that stretch near the mad mile are approaching 60kph. I recall one other occasion when I may have stopped. I’m not really sure what other bunches do. There’s no oncoming traffic to talk of – the only risk might be other cyclists turning right out from Audley to re-join the highway.
I’d be interested to know what the general consensus is and whether an exclusion to the red light / strict enforcement of road rules practice can be applied at this location once all the ride leaders / committee consults. We are much more likely to have a bingle within a DHBC bunch if we aren’t clear. The other risk is another sprinting bunch crashing into the back of us – could be nasty.
John
Waterfall return section: what to do at Farnell Ave lights
John
I came across these lights for the first time a few weeks ago in the RED, stop do not pass colour position. I am of the opinion that lights are lights and we stop if red. A warning sign prior to the rail lines advising cyclists to stop on red signal would remove all doubt. I cannot imagine that that logic would occur to anyone. I will discuss with Eleri and other coaches.
cheers Dougie
I came across these lights for the first time a few weeks ago in the RED, stop do not pass colour position. I am of the opinion that lights are lights and we stop if red. A warning sign prior to the rail lines advising cyclists to stop on red signal would remove all doubt. I cannot imagine that that logic would occur to anyone. I will discuss with Eleri and other coaches.
cheers Dougie
Oh dear. An accident waiting to happen. There's been no shortage of serious sprint stacks along that section in past years. 60km downhill is not suited to on-the-spot calls by the bunch leader.
Lights red, cyclists stop. Simple.
If those lights disrupt the mad-mile sprint, then that is good thing. Busy roads are not the place for unofficial racing. These days there are many cowboys on the Waterfall run. I'm talking about non-club riders who still want to ride fast. Mix some of these, slower recreational riders and 80 km/h traffic. Disaster.
There are plenty of opportunties to pin on a number and race less dangerously.
Just my opinion.
Paul
If those lights disrupt the mad-mile sprint, then that is good thing. Busy roads are not the place for unofficial racing. These days there are many cowboys on the Waterfall run. I'm talking about non-club riders who still want to ride fast. Mix some of these, slower recreational riders and 80 km/h traffic. Disaster.
There are plenty of opportunties to pin on a number and race less dangerously.
Just my opinion.
Paul
Might be a good idea if the specific ride leaders of each group mention this on the Sunday before we set out and remind people at the short stop at Waterfall too.
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JoTheBuilder
- Posts: 1500
- Joined: 19 Feb 2011, 15:32
While I understand Jon's comments that, if stopped, cyclists coming up from behind could be hazard, here are my thoughts.
Smaller bunches, slower pace and effective calls will mitigate the risks.
IMO it's roll straight through. Riders are NOT in the general traffic lane, rather in the breakdown / cyclelane which does not interfere with the vehicle lanes. I've called ROLLING very loudly there a couple of times on the red and will continue to do so unless instructed otherwise. We're not actually on the road, right?
I do see the issue of riders entering from the right though, one I hadn't considered before.
I do see the issue of riders entering from the right though, one I hadn't considered before.
Notice the bunches are getting bigger. Rode with the 28s for the first time since mid 2012 and the bunch was about 20-strong on the return trip along Botany Bay. Led the group but found it hard to hear the calls from behind.Smaller bunches, slower pace and effective calls will mitigate the risks.
Several weeks ago I was in a group that had so many people on it was approx 30-40 metres long! Not able to do calls.
I think we should create more bunches to keep the bunch numbers down. At least till the end of summer and/or when the numbers begin to drop (assume with the onset of winter).
1. Keep the 25s
2. and 28s,
3. create a new 30 kmph group (a large proportion of existing 28s will fit in this easily)
4. 32-33 kmph 'Normal Middies' bunch
5. and a 34-35 kmph 'Fast Middies' bunch.
6. Fasties 35 and over.
Last edited by marc2131 on 19 Feb 2013, 10:15, edited 1 time in total.
Maybe my post was a bit glib, and I can see the dangers of stopping suddenly just there. So I don't propose to hit the brakes at the first hint of orange.
However I agree with Jo, we as Cycling Club must insist that riders on club rides obey the road rules. How could we have any other policy? I'm not a lawyer, but I doubt that the club has the authority to grant its members exemptions to the law.
Pail
However I agree with Jo, we as Cycling Club must insist that riders on club rides obey the road rules. How could we have any other policy? I'm not a lawyer, but I doubt that the club has the authority to grant its members exemptions to the law.
Pail
I'll defer to the other coaches on this issue. I can see that it's a potential problem and I may need to reconsider my "it's not the road so the lights don't apply" stance. I think the calls woudl need to be "loud & proud" if we're going to stop.
You can't have it both ways. Tempting though.We're not actually on the road, right?
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shrubb face
- Posts: 1010
- Joined: 09 Sep 2008, 01:43
- Location: Marrickville
Personally I don't stop there. I'm not saying that this the right answer but I often ride with other bunches as well and if you come over the crest of the hill in the middle of the pack it would be extremely dangerous to attempt to stop. Really I think its an issue that has to be addressed by the RTA.
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JoTheBuilder
- Posts: 1500
- Joined: 19 Feb 2011, 15:32
Marc, the discussion has started regarding additional bunches but it comes down to the number of ride leaders we have, especially for the slower groups.
If more people were to volunteer to become coaches (which would be great! And PM me if you're interested!) the commitment would be less and we could conceivably have more groups ride to Waterfall.
If more people were to volunteer to become coaches (which would be great! And PM me if you're interested!) the commitment would be less and we could conceivably have more groups ride to Waterfall.
Bringing things back to the red light discussion.
Late last year I was doing the LACC Olympic Park training ride. Short 45 minute ride, bunch size 40, rolling paceline, speed maybe 40km/h. Great fun and good training. They have a stop at red lights policy that is well supported by most riders.
On a fast section I was at the front and made the call to stop at the lights, was shouted down, the group rolled through. If I was in a DHBC middies bunch and called rolling I would have been called reckless. LACC and DHBC both stop at lights, the difference is subtle, at what shade of orange and at what speed do we stop or roll?
On the mad mile we have alot of speed, unless the light is very red it is safer to roll through. My 2c worth.
What is the right call to make?
I agree with Dougie, we need to be clear on when we stop and when we don't. The ride leaders are the ones to decide.
I also agree with Paul, if you want to race, get a number and race properly. Or even have a bit of fun on the wide safe sections from Waterfall to Sutherland.
Whatever call is made, it is easier to communicate in a group of 20 than a group of 40!
Late last year I was doing the LACC Olympic Park training ride. Short 45 minute ride, bunch size 40, rolling paceline, speed maybe 40km/h. Great fun and good training. They have a stop at red lights policy that is well supported by most riders.
On a fast section I was at the front and made the call to stop at the lights, was shouted down, the group rolled through. If I was in a DHBC middies bunch and called rolling I would have been called reckless. LACC and DHBC both stop at lights, the difference is subtle, at what shade of orange and at what speed do we stop or roll?
On the mad mile we have alot of speed, unless the light is very red it is safer to roll through. My 2c worth.
What is the right call to make?
I agree with Dougie, we need to be clear on when we stop and when we don't. The ride leaders are the ones to decide.
I also agree with Paul, if you want to race, get a number and race properly. Or even have a bit of fun on the wide safe sections from Waterfall to Sutherland.
Whatever call is made, it is easier to communicate in a group of 20 than a group of 40!
I personally roll through there on every waterfall run. RBCC bunches I've ridden with do likewise. Agree that RTA should do better with management of the traffic. The only solution would involve segregating the traffic with a barrier or similar. How does one voice concerns of this intersection to the authorities?
Tricky one. RTA has no obligations to design roads for informal bunch racing and large bunches. And given the number of serious accidents along that section over the years, wouldn't surprise me if RTA wanted to "calm" things there.
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